Another buggy in wheelchair space thread

[MsAR]

I got on the bus at the same time as a wheelchair user was queuing to do so. The driver told the wheelchair user there wasn't room, so I quickly checked and saw it was a buggy and a shopping trolley in the space.

The driver told the wheelchair user there would be another bus in a few minutes and they didn't seem to mind and weren't particularly insistent about getting on.

Was I being unreasonable to step in at this point and tell the driver that the person with the buggy should get off as wheelchairs have priority? He was pretty annoyed when I did, and kept repeating that there wasn't space.

I'm in London, and there are clear signs on every bus stating this is the case. I've often had to get off a bus when a wheelchair needed to get on and would never question if asked to do so.

Would it also be unreasonable for me to complain to TFL? I know I'm being a busy body but the driver's attitude really irritated me! I'd like the mumsnet jury to help me decide what to do, if anything.

I wonder if parents realise how much that has been done by disability campaigners makes their lives easier - access to buildings and shops is much easier for prams now!

Sirzy I'm not sure they do, and even if they do realise that by some of the posts on here, I don't think they'd care anyway.
I managed fine when my DCs were younger. Fast forward a few years and I now have my own medical issues. I took my DCs out for the day yesterday, I have numerous hidden disabilities so I 'look' okay to most people. I'm a single parent on a low income and have no choice but to use public transport as I don't drive. Yeh I could have stayed at home but I wanted to make sure the kids had a nice time this half term on account of me picking up a really nasty infection last half term and nearly dying on them to boot.

I was in absolute agony waiting for the bus home, this woman with a contraption range rover of a pram , came out of nowhere and pushed right in front of me. Not because the bus was in a hurry, or that I appeared rude in anyway, she did it just because she could.

My DD declared that I was there first and I said it didn't matter we'd all be getting on the bus and that's all that mattered. I can't be arsed with arguing or proving to people that just because I'm young and look okay, that I might not be okay at that time and a little consideration towards others would go a long way.

Some days I could cry with the agony I am in by the end of the day in spite of painkillers etc and then times that by a 100 for what a wheelchair user may be feeling like. For posters to even suggest a wheelchair user may be able to 'just fold their chair' , I just don't know where to begin with entitled (yes it is) and ignorant attitudes like that.

'I got on a bus last night and there was an empty buggy in the space, I got them to move it out while I got in then it fit behind me (I go in forwards as I throw up travelling backwards). Next stop another buggy gets on, she walked up to me and said "Don't worry moving I'll just stand by the door". Proves your point exactly I think where she was thinking of asking me to move out of the space for her then saw the look on my face and changed her mind'

Exactly, shocking but sadly not surprising to those of us who know what wheelchair users experience not only every day but several times a day

I wonder if parents realise how much that has been done by disability campaigners makes their lives easier - access to buildings and shops is much easier for prams now!

And for people pulling wheely suitcases! I'm always very grateful for a ramp in those circumstances.

'That's appalling baconyum. I can't understand people at times.'

That's honestly nothing, I feel embarrassed even mentioning it to a point but it fits the context.

On the 'second class citizen' thread you'll read MUCH worse.

Just dd and I alone (note not yet in wheelchairs) already have to deal with blocked dropped kerbs, getting 'tutted' at if slow, dirty looks if we use lifts or disabled toilets (which we really only do if we can't access normal ones, eg in some shops the normal loos are up stairs - no lifts).

Wheelchair users are effectively still excluded from the majority of shops, restaurants, pubs, clubs, tourist attractions - even medical facilities can be difficult to access! Eg the Physio dept we have is up stairs - no lift. A dept mainly used by...the disabled!

Sorry for derail op.

Theonlywayis the point the poster was making was that if there are concessions made people will just abuse them and refuse to fold so it's better the concession is taken away.

I know it doesn't help or make anyone feel better, but the drivers in my company have argued that the transport system isn't working. They keep stamping more on us instead of addressing the big issues. It's easier and way cheaper to discipline us than to stand up to the ignorant people most of you have sadly come across in life.

Hopefully (though I'm not holding my breath) the court appeal pending will mean the law will be such that wheelchair users WILL LEGALLY have priority.

But given that for every infraction of the act a private person has to take the company responsible to court (time consuming and expensive) I'm sceptical.

When the 2 space busses were new, we had a 1 pram rule. Then the complaints began. People wanting to travel with a friend both wanting to not fold. We refused still to carry 2 prams, and we were disciplined. So a large group of us approached the management and said this is discrimination to favour the full fare passengers over the percentage fare wheelchair users. The company said " Oh! We could be sued!" And promised to put it right. 2 weeks later, we were issued forms to fill in if 2 prams stopped a wheelchair users access. Forms to absolve the company of responsibility and blame the parent who refused to fold. And since we don't have to get their name etc, nobody gets sued. Win, win in the companies eyes. Now if we refuse the 2nd pram, it's a disciplinary against us. Sorry. We tried. I have to name change now as this is identifying

Notasinglefuckwasgiven please don't apologise. You're not responsible for other peoples behaviour and I travel on enough public transport to know that your hands are tied. Thankyou for trying though.

Baconymum The GP practice I go to was purpose-built c. 1982 and four of the seven consulting rooms are up or down several steep stairs! As a rule they are rarely so busy that the doctors cannot offer to move to the ground floor rooms when necessary - but it is extraordinary that anyone applied for or got planning consent for it, isn't it?

Notasinglefuckwasgiven Thank you for your informative posts. It must be frustrating trying to do your best by all your passengers, and very frustrating indeed to have to deal politely with the selfish entitled ones.

I despair of what the next generation will be like when I hear stories like yours, or read some of the posts in this thread. Today's young parents - Thatcher's children & grandchildren 'there-is-no-such-thing-as-society' seem to be raising a very selfish generation.

Oh that's right, FoggyBottom - it's 'today's young parents'. I find it's always a really good idea to vilify one particular group and blame everything on them. Really helps to cement society together.

I find these threads utterly mystifying. How on earth can people not see the difference between a person with a pushchair and a wheelchair user? Also I get loads of buses in London and Surrey with a buggy and have never had to fold it or move so I'm just massively benefitting from the extra space. I'm really grateful and I'm happy to run the risk of having to vacate it.

Actually having said it's mystifying I heard something the other day that felt right out of a mumsnet thread (that I would probably have thought to myself was pushing credibility). A woman said to the man sitting next to her on the bus "that child is far too old for a pushchair". It was a girl of about 10ish in a FUCKING WHEELCHAIR! Not "even" a special needs buggy but an actual wheelchair. I've been really kicking myself for not saying something but I didn't really want to make a scene and potentially embarrass the wee girl and her mum who wouldn't have heard the comment.

I'm with you Splendide

How can people begin to equate getting up and taking a baby out with the endless difficulties of being in a wheelchair.

I kind of think they have to persuade the self it's the same because the alternative is to look and the mirror and see that you are a selfish, idiotic arsehole.

Exactly Padwatch.

I think that for most reasonable people I would expect the opposite reaction. I found that having a pram with me all the time for a year made me think a lot harder about how many places are really quite inaccessible. So for me I can shrug and think "oh this'll be more suitable once DS is walking" but obviously someone with a wheelchair is just locked out.

snowgirl I object to being called ignorant for my comment that wheelchair users sometimes can fold their chair. (And choose to do so). I do not presume their ability and go with their needs. If you had read my comments you may have realised that I cross paths with many wheelchair users and I was encouraging people to ask if they can be of any assistance and help if necessary - rather than stand and stare!

There are many other factors in thi debate re wheelchairs versus strollers. Instead of pitting one against the other, a civilized society shd recognize the needs of both an provide adequately for those needs.

There aren't really "needs" of people with buggies. They can fold them. A space is a nice bonus and not a "need".

A civilised society would recognise the fact that a person using a wheelchair clearly has greater need of a space on the bus than somebody with a pram and let the person with the wheelchair have the WHEELCHAIR space that people fought for. There would be no putting against each other if all people with prams realised they come second in this scenario.

I agree with you re buses. I suspect the problem is that wheelchair spaces are frequently mistaken for buggy/pram spaces. My local buses have a symbol of a buggy (as well as a wheelchair symbol). It needs to be made clearer.

As for disabled loos with baby changing tables, this is a multipurpose room. Not exclusively for disabled people.

I have a radar key (ulcerative colitis) and on several occasions I've unlocked a disabled loo (one without a baby changing table) for a desperate mother with a pram. She can't take her pram into a normal cubicle, so where else can she go if caught short? A little compassion is needed.

What are your thoughts on the disabled changing room/cubicle in shops? There is often a queue of mums waiting for it.

Should one room/toilet/space be always kept free when others can benefit from it?

Everyday life involves waiting, regardless of your mobility status or baby.

Mindthecrevasse you shouldn't be doing that with radar key.

I did read your post properly thankyou.

Precisely fanjo but it's like banging your head against a brick wall trying to get that point across.

Theonlywayis nobody said ALL parents are dicks, just that SOME are.