Another buggy in wheelchair space thread

[MsAR]

I got on the bus at the same time as a wheelchair user was queuing to do so. The driver told the wheelchair user there wasn't room, so I quickly checked and saw it was a buggy and a shopping trolley in the space.

The driver told the wheelchair user there would be another bus in a few minutes and they didn't seem to mind and weren't particularly insistent about getting on.

Was I being unreasonable to step in at this point and tell the driver that the person with the buggy should get off as wheelchairs have priority? He was pretty annoyed when I did, and kept repeating that there wasn't space.

I'm in London, and there are clear signs on every bus stating this is the case. I've often had to get off a bus when a wheelchair needed to get on and would never question if asked to do so.

Would it also be unreasonable for me to complain to TFL? I know I'm being a busy body but the driver's attitude really irritated me! I'd like the mumsnet jury to help me decide what to do, if anything.

Because no one campaigns for them? Same way it's ok stick baby change and chair for breastfeeding in disabled loo. Love having to wait 35m for baby to be fed and changed before I can use the loo.

sashh I don't know because the driver in my case wouldn't give me one. I'd used my Oyster card and he said he couldn't refund the money back on to it so I couldnt get another bus. Afaik you have to have an Oyster card to use busses in London now as they no longer issue tickets.

I no longer live in London and the busses near me have spaces enough for 2 wheelchairs and opposite there's a bay of folding seats that could house a buggy. There's a guy who gets on the bus I take on home from work who gets on with a large motorised scooter that fits with room left.

Andrewofgg Sun 05-Jun-16 16:44:10

The best might be for the driver to announce that "this bus cannot move until the buggy is folded and space made for the wheelchair" and leave it to public opinion!

I suspect that the bus companies don't want to stop people using that space, after all it's a space which could accept a fare.

Equally a hotel may have disabled access in part. Do they keep that room free in case a disabled person needs it? Or would they / could they turf you out of he room if it's needed?

What I would like to know is: is the space a protected space, and can only be occupied by wheelchair users, or are they legally obliged to provide a space that could in theory be occupied by a wheelchair if needed? But if not needed at the point a person boards the bus can be used by anyone?

What is the position?

I've tried the not moving thing. Surprise surprise the passengers complained about me the two girls with prams got apologies from the company. The bus companies care about money above all else. It's horrendous what cuts/rules have come and in my opinion, compromised our ability to do the job and safety. Frightening at times.

Do London buses not fit a chair and a pram? We have two spaces on our new fleet and we're a shite small operation by TFL standards. I'm surprised at that.

I agree wheelchair users have priority. On most buses here though, there is space either side and a buggy and wheelchair would easily for on the bus. Usually I don't bother getting the bus, it's too much of a faff. Of course I would move/get off/fold my pushchair if a disabled person needed the space.

However, after reading this thread, instead of walking into town I caught the bus today. I deliberately intended to fold up my pushchair (ICandy peach blossom for a newborn and a toddler, I've included a picture). As soon as the bus pulled in, I began to fold the frame. I nipped on the bus and asked the two nearest people I could see if they would mind holding my babies whilst I got the pushchair. They refused and said 'they Daren't risk it nowadays' . I hen asked the driver if he could help me and he replied with 'you don't need to fold the pushchair, there's a space'. He eventually got out and tutted as did a lot of passengers and there were muttering ma of 'how ridiculous' 'were going to be stuck here ages now' etc. The driver held my babies whilst I put the frame in and then went back for the changing bag and the two seat units. Then I had to struggle holding my toddler who was squirming to get down and my newborn.

Overall, whilst I 100% agree wheelchair users have priority, there should be more people (bus drivers especially) willing to offer assistance to parents who are travelling alone if they need it.

It would be interesting to know who many times those mithering about HOW DIFFICULT it would be to fold their buggy have actually had to fold their buggy for a wheelchair.

I'm going to guess it's between zero and never. Maybe, just maybe, once at a push.

I'm a daily bus user and can count on one hand the number of times I've had to do it. (Actually twice that I can recall.) So maybe 10 mins of very slight inconvenience over three or four years. Big whoop.

I suspect that the bus companies don't want to stop people using that space, after all it's a space which could accept a fare.

And children under 5 don't usually pay do they?

Kids under 5 travel free. In some areas nobody has a child of 5 or over but yes they don't pay.

but the mum pays.

Its not BusStopBetty. I had a compact double buggy. Almost always travelled on my own. Always managed to fold it by myself by sending DD to sit down at the nearest seat and holding DS with the one arm and folding with the other. It was a one hand mechanism, and sprung back up just as easily when I got off the bus too.

Snowgirl, it sounds like Mermaid needs lessons from you.
Tart, Oyster card users ask the driver for a continuation ticket.

Some of the attitudes on here are disgusting but not Suprising after reading the second class citizen thread. It's worth remembering that any one of us can be struck by illness or accident at any point and find ourselves in be wheelchair.

How can anybody read Dawndonna's dds posts and still feel that a wheelchair space (which only exists because disabled people fought fucking hard for them) shouldn't be given to an actual wheelchair user because they don't want to wake baby, because the wheelchair user may be in it through their own fault, because babies are like tiny disabled people, because pushing a pram is the same as pushing yourself in a chair or any of the other " what if" things mentioned here? to you Dawndonna and your dd and everyone facing these shitty attitudes.

I've travelled a lot on buses with pram/buggy. I lived in middle of nowhere, nearest shop is a three mile walk and buses were as rare as hens teeth, and dh worked away so I had to manage on my own. Catching the bus was stressful, I'd hope for a bus with an empty wheelchair space because it made things more convenient for me, I'd consider myself lucky on the occasions that seat wasn't occupied as it meant I could avoid the pissed off looks from strangers as I clumsily folded the big pram. I never ever counted on that space though, because it's a wheelchair space there's every chance it's being used by a person it was designed for so I'd be looking at the upcoming stops and be ready to fold, or get off if needed. I left the house assuming I'd be folding and was a nice extra if I didn't have to. That nice extra for me is an essential for wheelchair users, of course they absolutely have priority. It's shouldn't even a debate imo.

Parents managed on buses with prams before disabled people campaigned for the wheelchair spaces on buses. It's nice that they are available to parents when empty but it seems many pushchair users are thinking the have more right to use wheelchair spaces than actual wheelchair users. Those type of people are probably the same type who start threads complaining when someone with a blue badge has the brass neck to park in a parent and child space.

In many cases, pushchair users want the wheelchair space because it makes their life easier, wheelchair users need the wheelchair space so that they can have a life outside the house. Wheelchair users should not have to plan ahead and book wheelchair space, If (some) parents can not be trusted to give up the wheelchair space for people in wheelchairs, then maybe no pushchairs should be allowed in them at all?

Its a wheelchair space

Akire while I can understand that that is irritating, it isn't the parents fault if the disabled toilet has been allocated for parents to feed and change babies. Surely with this the issue lies with shops?

With regards to buses, I have a double pram and avoid public transport because I don't want to take up the space allocated for wheelchairs. It's was my choice to buy a side by side pram, other people are more deserving of the space I would be taking up.

do people feed their babies in disabled toilets? Good god when I was breastfeeding DD I would point blank refuse to feed her in any toilet! And it is the fault of the premises if the baby changing is in the disabled toilet, not the fault of the parent

baby changing facilities are probably in the disabled loo because its the only unisex facility in the building. Makes sense to me tbh.

I didn't say was parents fault I was just pointing out that you have two groups parents and disabled who all have competing needs. That get thrown together in one place and get to fight it out. Rather than business setting up both.

So instead of putting baby change in men and women toilet just put them in disabled one. Fine till huge queue there. It's bare min as opposed to best it could be

Headofthehive55 If a disabled person turns up on spec at a hotel and every room including the disabled room is already let, no, the person in the disabled room can't be told to leave.

And if the disabled person has booked but has not asked for the disabled room, no, the person in it cannot be required to swap: but certainly ought to, at least if the room offered instead is at least as good in other respects. Of course if that person is out of the hotel for any other reason and cannot be asked, the hotel cannot do anything about it.

Just like on the bus: if the wheelchair space is taken, it's taken.

But that's not the issue. The buggyist who has paid a fare is entitled to stay on the bus with the buggy and that's all. That passenger may have to fold the buggy, wake the baby, manage with the shopping: too bad if it's awkward. It's less awkward than not being able to travel.

Its a wheelchair space. That people like my grandmother (a wheelchair user from when her youngest child was born) campaigned long and hard for so that they could travel.

As a parent, you have a choice about the way you transport your children, whether you use a rucksac instead of putting stuff in the basket and so on. You can pop them in a sling to be hands free for even a few minutes if you don't want to use one for longer.
You don't have to fight with things every single minute you'll be out of the house, and know that it will be the same for the rest of your life.
So either plan ahead and be prepared to fold your buggy, or get off when the space is needed for its rightful occupant and don't complain.

CMOTDibbler For a moment I thought you were going to suggest putting the DC in a rucksack . . . well, why not?

There really is no excuse for the won't-fold brigade, is there?

I'd like to know what the 'I was here first and I can't cope with folding a buggy' brigade would say if it was reversed. Let's say two able bodied adults are occupying the wheelchair space with some bags. And refuse to move to other seats because moving their shopping is inconvenient, their feet hurt from shopping, they're tired, don't want to juggle bags back down the bus at their stop etc. And as a result the bus driver said you couldn't get on with your buggy, even if you folded it cos there wasn't space for it unless the other pair moved up a few seats. Bet in that scenario you'd be calling them everything under the sun, despite the fact it's not even called a buggy space.