Another buggy in wheelchair space thread

[MsAR]

I got on the bus at the same time as a wheelchair user was queuing to do so. The driver told the wheelchair user there wasn't room, so I quickly checked and saw it was a buggy and a shopping trolley in the space.

The driver told the wheelchair user there would be another bus in a few minutes and they didn't seem to mind and weren't particularly insistent about getting on.

Was I being unreasonable to step in at this point and tell the driver that the person with the buggy should get off as wheelchairs have priority? He was pretty annoyed when I did, and kept repeating that there wasn't space.

I'm in London, and there are clear signs on every bus stating this is the case. I've often had to get off a bus when a wheelchair needed to get on and would never question if asked to do so.

Would it also be unreasonable for me to complain to TFL? I know I'm being a busy body but the driver's attitude really irritated me! I'd like the mumsnet jury to help me decide what to do, if anything.

I remember in the "old days" (oldest is 26), before accessible buses, we had no choice about folding/collapsing the buggy or pram, you simply wouldn't have been able to get on the bus! If you are going to use public transport buy something sensible to put your child/ren in. I don't understand the attitude that says "my child takes priority over anyone and everyone".
IMO wheelchair users are the priority.

Dawndonna's DD That is so discouraging. It appears that more campaigning needs to be done. I think what a lot of people don't really understand is that disability rights is a civil rights issue. Accommodation and accessibility laws are there to address discrimination that was rampant before such laws were passed, and as is evident on this thread, there are still issues that have not been adequately addressed.

Also..being skint doesn't preclude you from using your legs to walk

To poster who said they'd stay on as they couldn't afford the bus ticket.

Disability discrimination is alive and kicking

I'm always really shocked by these threads. It's a wheelchair space, anyone who parks a pram in one needs to remember that. Most buses at least in London do not have pram/pushchair spaces. They only have a wheelchair space. If you expect to take a pram that you can't or won't fold on a bus you need to account for the fact that as there is no pram space your journey might not be straightforward and you may need to get off the bus and wait for the next one or walk if the wheelchair space is needed for a wheelchair. If pram users aren't happy with this then as others have said they can always campaign for pram spaces. What they should not be doing is parking them in wheelchair spaces and refusing to move for wheelchair users.

I bet all the 'Fold Refusers' are the types who would kick up one hell of a stink if they couldn't park in a Parent & Child space because someone without kids is already there. They are, however, happy to use a wheelchair space even though they don't have a disability.

Twunts.

fanjo although my legs are capable of walking, You can't walk 14 miles both ways weeks after having a baby.

I wasn't looking for sympathy in my post I was just highlighting it's not easy to just 'buy a new one that you can fold'
Not everyone has money to chuck at things.

It's not just those with invisible disabilities who have to fight for a seat, I'm 9 months pregnant with a huge bump and a man asked for my seat because he was tired from working the night before of course being pregnant isn't a disability by any means but some people are truly unbelievable

I hope you told him no, Lucy.

I said sorry I'm tired from growing a human ask one of the million school kids sitting down

It's a wheelchair space.
It's a wheelchair space
It's a wheelchair space.
It's a wheelchair space.

What is the worst case scenario for a buggy-user who has to fold?

A baby which wakes up and is mardy for the day.

It does not compare with a wheelchair-user who can't get on, does it?

Although OP was wrong to insist "on somebody else's behalf" - if the wheelchair-user did not mind that is the end of it.

Piranha- it's interesting that you say that. I had a Facebook friend who posted an outraged status about being asked to fold her buggy and how outrageous it was that mums were being bullied off buses and she was there first and paid for her ticket blah blah . I quickly deleted her but she already had form for ranting about selfish people parking in P&C spaces. Apparently the "first come first served" principle doesn't apply to parking spaces.

That phrase about walking a mile in someone elses shoes?

Walk a mile in my shoes and you'll have my shoes. I'll be a mile away, unable to follow you and with no choice in the matter.

Those who say their buggies can't fold with seat attachments/carrycots

Why can't you just lift off the seat/carrycot with your child still in it, place it on a seat on the bus and then collapse the buggy.

That's what I did. It was awkward sitting and occasionally I even had to stand up instead but at least a wheelchair could get on

I was on a London bus earlier and thought of this thread. A wheelchair user wanted to get on the bus but the space was full with a buggy and luggage. The driver said that wheelchair users no longer have priority!

This is the case

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2014/1573.html

which Mr Paulley is taking on appeal to the Supreme Court on 15 June. It is being heard by a court of seven rather than the usual five which indicates that it is important.

Mr Paulley is known as a campaigner on principle - and none the worse for that - and is not just looking for damages (which would be a modest sum). I don't see what he can expect to achieve. The driver cannot force the buggyist, if there is such a word and there is now, to fold the buggy. The best might be for the driver to announce that "this bus cannot move until the buggy is folded and space made for the wheelchair" and leave it to public opinion!

I do think there ought to be a ring and reserve option for wheelchair users, a bit like trains.

Dear god no.

To use the one for the train you have to book at least 48 hours in advance, how often do you know 2 days before you travel exactly which bus you are on.

Again, I agree that the majority of the time the spaces should be given to a wheelchair user but sometimes allowances should be made. It's not all about entitlement.

No it is. The space is there for the person who who is entitled to use it.

DOn't buses let you board with your old ticket? I know in London when a bus broke down we all just showed the ticket to the next driver and didn't have to pay again.

It would be simple for a driver to issue a 'buggy' receipt that could be shown handed to the next bus driver.

Why don't London buses just have a space for a wheelchair and a space for buggies?

Because that is not how the present generation of buses were designed and they are not going to be changed overnight.

And if they were that would mean less space for other passengers who also want to get on. Not necessarily a good idea, is it?

It remains the case, as I understand it, that bus companies retain the right to throw people off their buses for good reason which could include refusal to fold a buggy, if that is their rule. If someone won't get off, they can refuse to move the bus and can call the police. In essence, the only thing that decision says is that bus companies don't have to have that rule.

Fuzzy That really does not surprise me. People like that have a level of entitlement that is truly breathtaking. She probably thinks disabled toilets were specifically invented so she can have more space for her buggy while she's taking a crap.

I assume London buses would have to issue some sort of onward travel ticket, because these days people pay by Oyster or debit card.

Why don't London buses just have a space for a wheelchair and a space for buggies?
And even if there were both types of spaces you would still get pushchairs in the unoccupied wheelchair space so the same situation would keep coming up.

Andrew "I don't see what he can expect to achieve."

I do. We could implement a rule about no admittance on the bus in the first place unless buggy is folded, or, as you say, the bus goes nowhere till the parent folds the buggy. This is what happens when someone gets on without paying and I haven't waited long because the whole bus is pissed off with the person. So I think it's great that Paulley is keeping up the good work.

re tickets, even with an Oyster card, you can ask for a continuity ticket to show to the next driver, you don't have to pay again.

the driver cannot get out of the seat and start an argument but as I say, there are ways of getting further with this issue.