To say your good fortune is down to luck....

[Shallowstreams]

On threads here I keep reading people saying how they've 'worked hard' and as such can pay off their entire mortgage by mid thirties or similar.

But most people work hard and that's a distant dream. It's only achievable to get and pay off a decent sized mortgage if you've had the luck in whatever shape or form to get an extremely high paying job or a very low mortgage perhaps because of family help or inheritance.

I work very hard and earn very well as does my husband yet our mortgage won't be paid off for many many years, and I'm almost 40.

It just annoys me that people seem to think they've managed to achieve this as they've worked harder than others and are not acknowledging the good fortune that has put them in this position

AIBU?

We've been very lucky, I'm not ashamed to admit that. We work hard, but then so do our friends who aren't in such a fortunate position. It I had a magic wand, I'd make sure all our family and friends were in a similar position to us.

Nor 100% equals, true . If she had cocoa powder with water that would not be so bad. However hot chocolate is cocoa plus sugar usually plus milk.
I am just saying one reason I am not ill like many women in their 50s is because of active steps I take which every doctor in the country would agree help you stay healthy and one reason I didn't have 3 babies by the time I was 21 and instead had university prizes was because I was a virgin. in other words all through life we make active choices. Now of course you could still get some cancers no matter how well you eat and even if you don't smoke and avoid asbestos and the like and you could still get pregnant by rape but you hugely reduce risks through active choices you make.

Knowing you have a choice every time you cram that toastie or hot chocolate into your mouth or lie in rather than work or choose your knitting degree over further maths gives you power. You can make an informed choice - "eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die" nothing wrong with that but I just want people to know there are choices and particularly if it's too late for them to make sure their daughters make good informed choices and don't assume the whole of life chances are just down to luck so no point in trying to improve your odds.

gwen working hard isn't about working more hours doing the same thing. If working more hours would leave me in the same position I would be looking at working regular hours and spending the additional time either looking for a new job or working towards a qualification with the goal of eventually changing to a position earning more.

I am just saying one reason I am not ill like many women in their 50s is because of active steps I take which every doctor in the country would agree help you stay healthy

But clearly give you an empathy by-pass.

This Toby Morris cartoon is quite apt.

...if tiny. Link here to full size.

"Making sacrifices" only saves you a little bit a year. Hundreds, maybe. Which isn't much when you look at what things cost.

I'm always at the people who claim to drive around in old bangers and last year's clothes and don't have "expensive holidays", and thereby save the several thousand required for private school fees. I know plenty of people who have old cars, never buy new clothes and have cheap holidays - because that's just normal, it's what most people do - and could still never afford private school fees in a million years. It's deluded.

I know plenty of people who have old cars, never buy new clothes and have cheap holidays - because that's just normal, it's what most people do - and could still never afford private school fees in a million years. It's deluded.

Hear hear. If your household income is less than the cost of school fees, "scrimping and saving" isn't going to do the trick.

I have huge empathay for people who are ill and I have always mentioned above that some illnesses are not caused by lifestyle. It is not lacking in empathy though to help and enable people by saying tax X course of action and you will earn more or be less likely to be ill. It is called lvoe, care and concern for others. It is certainly not lack of empathy. It morally wrong position would be to say to people don't worry about what you eat and don't work hard because at the end of the day it's all down to luck so you might as well not try! That is a terrible message to give to people. It misleads them, damages them and keeps them down.

I used the statement "I'm just thankful I was lucky enough to get that" today, actually.

At a university open day (am starting a degree at 41, having recently been retired from my former career on medical grounds & also a single mum after marital breakdown), I was talking to a rep about funding and mentioned that I'm really lucky that all my fees are being covered for me.

I certainly feel lucky, but actually it's the 20 yrs in my former career & the fact that I signed up to a learning credit scheme 15 years ago even though I didn't need it until now.

I also feel lucky that I'm getting a £500 payout I wasn't expecting.
I'm being paid it because I had the bad luck to break my wrist, but then my STBX luckily remembered a long forgotten accident policy I had taken out.

So whilst it could be argued that choices brought me some of the above, it was only brought about by a combination of previous wise choices, followed by a series of unlucky events.
The outcome would have not happened without luck, wise choices & 20 yrs of hard work - no one element would have worked in isolation.

WuTangFlan thanks for that link.

These points have struck a chord for me.

The let them eat cake quote back to me though is exactly my point. If we say those who are not well off cannot bel awyers, it is not a career for the likes of them, it's pie in the sky that someone from a poor background can become a lawyer; it's impossible and their hard work, effort will never pay off so don't bother - that keeps them down. It is not an impossible dream that my immigrant Muslim cleaner's son has done the same LPC law course my daughters have. It is a fact. That is Britain - for many a land of opportunity with many fewer barriers to get on than some states (not perfect but better than some, free education and much else).

So when advising teenagers do make sure they realise they have choices. As to what they might choose and you might advise them depends very much on your own views and philosophy of course. If success for you is laying down your life for Jesus or Mo or spending your days thinking whilst on benefits or that women's place is in the home having a baby a year that's the view you give to the chidlren. If you think women should be in caring jobs because law is not for the likes of them then you say that etc etc. However I do hope people don't just say to their teenagers - don't bother to try to go for X career because you won't manage it (unless it's totally unlikely - Olympic champion for someone who cannot even throw a ball although even there it's all in the practice, as M Syed always says in the Times - he found 4 streets near his state school had 4 UK table tennis champions. Why? Because his teacher a leading trainer was nearby helping the children and they practised and practised.

The Outliers book shows 10,000 hours makes you good at things. The Beatles did 10,000 hours including 7 hour stints playing in Germany. Bill Gates did 10,000 hours of programming in his teens. I did 10,000 hours of classical music in mine and presumably have done at least 10,000 hours of law never mind 10,000 hours of being a parent to a lot of children over 31 years. We get good at things we do a lot of.

The Outliers book shows 10,000 hours makes you good at things.

Gladwell's book is, with respect, hardly convincing. It may well be that doing a lot of practice is necessary. It is not sufficient: there are hundreds of bands scuffling around the pub circuit who have played at least as much as the Beatles, but never achieved that (or any) success. It's a fantastic right-wing narrative: the poor are poor because they are too lazy to do the work the rich do, and therefore the rich deserve their success and the poor deserve their failure.

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/07/140728094258.htm

Bill Gates did 10,000 hours of programming in his teens.

So why was he never notably good at it? Yes, I am professionally qualified to make this claim, and I have read some of the code he wrote in Microsoft's early years. Remember: not a line of MS-DOS, which was the thing that made his fortune, was written by him or Paul Allen (they bought it as a going concern, as QDOS, from SCP, and in turn that was hardly original). The Microsoft Altair 8K Basic, the only commercial product he wrote (in conjunction with Paul Allen, who reputedly did the heavy lifting) is perfectly competent, no more: its marketing was, however, a thing of wonder. Gates was, and is, a fantastic businessman, a fine man manager, and a ruthless and uncompromising commercial opponent. He's also been spectacularly wrong about several topics, not least his dismissal of the Internet (you may have heard of it).

That his father was a successful lawyer, his mother on the board of banks and his grandfather an extremely successful banker, which funded his private education and Harvard career is, of course, not relevant to the "from log cabin to Redmond" narrative.

I did 10,000 hours of classical music in mine

And yet you aren't making your career in the Festival Hall. Because even if it's necessary, it's not sufficient. You need to be talented and lucky, too.

I think it is also very necessary to be practising in the right way.

I heard somewhere that luck is working hard and being prepared for a good opportunity, and that is mostly true. Some people are more opportunist than others, and that is a skill in itself. Unless you are a lottery winner or beneficiary, hard work will bring more luck than waiting for things to happen, but it is not guaranteed..

And if you are rich, you are not necessarily lucky.

We are wealthy, through our own efforts, despite poorer than working class backgrounds, but when we were going through a rough patch ( multiple miscarriages, stillbirth, loss of parents on both sides within a short period), there was no shortage of people saying that 'money doesn't buy you everything you know'..

So we are lucky have 2 beautiful children, and lucky to know how lucky we are.

"gwen working hard isn't about working more hours doing the same thing."

Want2be, working hard basically means working a lot or putting a lot of effort into your main job, what you're talking about is making good career decisions, but that's really not the same as working hard.

"I would be looking at working regular hours and spending the additional time either looking for a new job or working towards a qualification with the goal of eventually changing to a position earning more"

I've spent thousands of pounds and lots of time studying. Unfortunately I'm not good at the kinds of things that make a lot of money so I'm never going to be well off from studying.

Well this just sums it up - those of us who think the 10,000 hours is a good illustration of our point - those who practice do well tend to do well. Those sunk the mire of failure who thinkn putting in 10,000 hours is not worth the bother don't get on.

I don't know anyone who does 10,00 hours of music practice who is bad at music.3 of my children won music scholarships so did a lot of practice. They are good. They are not good because some magic dust of luck was put upon them but because they practise their music. It's nto rocket science and anyone good at ballet, sport or anything knows perfectly well you have to put in your 10,000 hours to be good. I am amazed people think it's not so! Beckham wasn't a good footballer because of the good fairy at his christening. It was hours and hours of practice.

Amnywayh those who think practice is pointless are wonderful to have around as it leaves the field open to those of us who put in the ours to go home with all the prizes! Bring on the "luck is all" crowd as it leaves the field home open for victory by the hard workers.

"I don't know anyone who does 10,00 hours of music practice who is bad at music."

Those who are bad will not do the 10,000 hours!

Malcolm Gladwell's book is very interesting, but has been widely criticised.

"Beckham wasn't a good footballer because of the good fairy at his christening. It was hours and hours of practice. "

I guarantee you that, however many hours of football I do, I will never be like Beckham.

Those sunk the mire of failure who thinkn putting in 10,000 hours is not worth the bother don't get on.

I'm in a very comfortable job thanks to my PhD, which I didn't get by lazing around. I think that beats your LLB, doesn't it, if we're playing "look at me I'm qualified"?

I do, however, have enough empathy and insight to realise that standing around outside Job Centres and telling people that if only they had decent PhDs in fashionable subjects they'd be more employable, and it's their own fault that they don't, would make me a bit of a cunt.

I don't know anyone who does 10,00 hours of music practice who is bad at music

Helps to have parents who can afford the lessons, the instrument and provide housing where you can practice (and yes, both my children have two Grade VIIIs each, in two contrasting instruments: again, I'm not naive enough to smugly claim that's because other children are lazy).

They are not good because some magic dust of luck was put upon them but because they practise their music

they are good because they had the magic dust of the kind of mentality that can stick with 10,000 hours of practice. plus the magic dust of luck of having a parent who knows how to access music lessons etc.

User, I am like you. I am a lawyer. Made very wise choices all my life. High earner. Husband an even higher earner. If you are who I think you are then I made even better choices than you because I didn't marry someone I had to subsidise and later pay off. I married someone who loves me, whom I love and who is a very successful high earner.

I have one child who has access to us, our values, our work ethic, private schools, tutoring etc. But you know what, she lacks the capacity to actually work the way we work, to understand things the way we do, to pick herself up the way we do. So she really struggles. she could no more put in 10,000 hours of practice in an instrument she isn't absolutely passionate about than she could split the atom.

it isn't a choice. It is what you are born with. and then luck.

I have other children who are different. So I see how it is sometimes just how you are.

Because we are rich, my daughter who struggles won't end up pregnant at 16 in a low paying job. She will go to college (probably after an expensive gap year- certainly after an expensive education), we will do our best to find her the best place for her to work. We will support and help her all the way. She is lucky. not lucky to have the frame of mind she has (although she has other wonderful qualities - just not the ones that would have got you out of a sink estate in the 70s) but lucky to be born to rich, educated parents.

And we are rich and educated because we were lucky enough to be born intelligent to decent families in a country that valued education.

I do understand what you say over and over about empowering women to understand their choices and I think what you say about wishing women would reach higher etc is great. But you also have to realise that not everyone is cut out for this. And if you someone who isn't, then you are way luckier being my daughter because we have access to resources that can make a huge difference to her life.

I was thinking about this yesterday. I was looking through some old pics and felt like I really miss 'me'. At the moment all I do is work. I work in my actual job and then I work evenings and weekends in my other job. In between times I do house stuff and occasionally I talk to my children. If I am not working I feel guilty. It occurred to me yesterday that this is not fun. At what point is hard work not worth it?

My SIL (we married brothers), and regularly says we so lucky to only have a year left to pay on my mortgage as they still have 10 years. They have a slightly lower mortgage than us as they bought earlier, and have had the same small inheritances from dh's side. They probably earn slightly more than self employed dh and me, they also have a company car.

We put our inheritances (2 x ~£15k 10 years apart) into our mortgage saving years and £'000s worth of interest amounts. They bought a new car/had a holiday/new kitchen.

They do expensive holidays abroad, we holiday in UK, they have new cars we run ours until economically it makes more sense to get something newer. With the money we save we over pay our mortgage by a couple of hundred quid a month, if we want something we save for it. When they wanted a conservatory they added it to their mortgage (more interest/longer term).

We planned ahead to, if it was possible, pay off our mortgage early so we'd be mortgage free by the time dh came of age for university or whatever so we would have extra cash if needed.

They choose to spend their money on luxuries and borrowed when needed, their choice and they have enjoyed it, but its unfair to say we are lucky. In some cases it was all down to choices and planning ahead.

I don't think I am extreme as people like to pretend. I have never siad on this thread or anywhere else that luck plays no part.

Also the idea that I might say this is ridiculous:
"I do, however, have enough empathy and insight to realise that standing around outside Job Centres and telling people that if only they had decent PhDs in fashionable subjects they'd be more employable, and it's their own fault that they don't, would make me a bit of a cunt."

Of course I would not do that. However the bottom line that we divide into those who think no point trying and putting in the hours, the 10,000 hours, the practice etc is pointless as it's all down to luck just keeps people down.

Of course I also accept that some people have disabilities and some have a range of problems which mean they could not do a particular job. If you have no hands you cannot be a surgeon. If you can't speak it's hard to be a barrister etc etc

Kathy raises the important issue of when does hard work become not worth it. For some that is any work at all and we all know the local teenager and 20 something layabouts who don't do a stroke and getting themselves out to the local shop to pick up their beer is a huge effort and at the other extreme people who work so hard that makes them unhappy. I don't think there is a precise balance that works for everyone. You just have to find your own balance and accept that when you have very small children life is very hard whether you work or don't but gets better as they get older. My advice is spread risk, don't put all your financial eggs in one basket and don't give up work as later in life you may regret it.

think no point trying and putting in the hours, the 10,000 hours, the practice etc is pointless as it's all down to luck just keeps people down.

It is quite clear that some people are disadvantaged by believing that nothing that they can do will overcome other's good fortune, and in that I don't disagree. It is also quite clear that people who are successful are very keen to claim it is about their moral virtue, not their good fortune, and claim the credit for things that are mostly just contingent.

www.wbs.ac.uk/news/strike-it-lucky-the-role-luck-plays-in-business-success/

The main paper is here:

www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/19416520.2016.1120971

but you'll need access to a university library.

Max Verstappen is now the youngest man to have won an F1 race, a fact entirely unrelated in your eyes, presumably, to his father being an F1 driver and former teammate of Michael Schumacher. See also Jacques Villeneuve, Damon Hill, Nico Rosberg, Jolyon Palmer, Kevin Magnussen, Nelson Piquet Jr, Bruno Senna, Ralph Schumacher, Mick Schumacher, Carlos Sainz Jr...none of them as quick or as talented as their father/uncle/brother, but with their pathway smoothed by money and contacts. They were lucky to be born into the right family. As were their fathers/etc: Ayrton Senna's talent would have come to nothing without fabulously rich parents able to fund him pissing about in British F3 for a couple of seasons, for example. There's probably someone on a housing estate in Doncaster with the talent to be an F1 driver: how would you suggest they go about achieving this goal?

Look at the excuses which people working in the humanities use to explain why they haven't got A Level further maths, or can't write their own software to do complex tasks, or can't play football to professional standard. There are many things you try, and the real path, which Gladwell ignores, is that most people (even moral paragons such as yourself) rapidly give up things that they don't get some reasonable facility within the first few hours, or at most the first few weeks. Presumably you don't believe you could have done a degree in any subject, from Fine Art to Maths, had but you chosen to ("Triumph of the Will", and all that).

The point at which hard work is not worth it is the point at which it is time to look for another job. I have been in quite a few jobs where hard work just resulted in being given more work. It is totally untrue that hard work will always get you promoted or noticed in a good way.