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Original poster

To ask if you agree with forced sterilisation?

239 replies

NeedACleverNN · 29/05/2016 16:24

An acquaintance I know has been court ordered to be sterilised. No choice.

I don't know the exact details but I do know several children have already been removed on welfare issues.

Whilst I feel sorry for her because she loves children, I do think the judge made the right choice. She has a few mental health problems and struggles to take care of herself let alone dependent children.

Do you think judges should be able to do this or not?

OP posts:
NeedsAsockamnesty · 29/05/2016 20:59

No it is not inevitable at least no more than the rest of us do

MyNewBearTotoro · 29/05/2016 21:01

I think the responses on this thread show that the reasons sterilisation might be suggested for women are varied. Some people are discussing women with learning difficulties, others women vulnerable to rape/ abuse, others women who are child abusers, others women with addiction. There are many reasons a hypothetical woman might not make a suitable parent, some of which might affect her ability to give informed consent to medical treatment and others which would not, some which might affect her ability to consent to and enjoy sex and others which would not, some which might justify removing her access to men/ sex and others which might not.

I think court-imposed sterilisation is not something you can really say a blanket yes/ no to as every case will be different. Thankfully I don't think it's common and I don't think it's a decision the courts would come to easily.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 29/05/2016 21:11

clash this explains the capacity to consent to sex fairly well.

www.fishermeredith.co.uk/site/blog/fm-blog/court-of-appeal-clarifies-test-for-capacity-to-consent-to-sex

I would only add to it that the ability to understand that sex can lead to pregnancy and STI's does not require the ability or desire to prevent it (that's a medical capacity question) as we cannot place a higher expectation on someone who is involved with a court of protection case than we can in normal life.

Any person is free to have unprotected sex as many times as they wish

ClashCityRocker · 29/05/2016 21:19

Thanks needs I'll have a read through.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 29/05/2016 21:21

Lacking not capacity to consent to medical treatment if I recall correctly is if someone is unable to do one or more of the following

Understand the information given to them as long as is needed to make the decision
Retain the information given to them as long as is needed to make the decision
Comunicate a choice
Weigh up the possible choices availible to them.

someone could lack capacity one day but have it the next they may also potentially have the capacity to consent to one form of treatment but not another

Kpo58 · 29/05/2016 21:40

I do think that judges should be able to enforce sterilization on certain cases. Mainly for:

  • Those who rape children and other vulnerable people
  • Actively abusive partners & parents (who refuse to change or get help)
  • Those who keep having children who they can't/wont look after properly and need to be removed by SS at birth

As much as temporary conception (such as monthly injections) sound like a good idea, there is little you can do if the person refuses to turn up and take them or goes on the run.

ElegantDream · 29/05/2016 21:56

Elegant Yes i agree rapists should be sterillised, but. You can't compare a sick women with MH needs to dirty disgusting vile rapist.

No, you can't compare them (I thought the thread had moved on a little).

However, I do think there are arguments to be made in all those cases.

You see, I don't think (in the case of certain women with certain MH issues) that the needs of the woman outweigh the needs of the child. Sometimes, I think the needs of the child come first (which means, in some cases, that it is better that some children are never born to rather than to be born with FAS, or into abuse of all kinds).

bloodyteenagers · 29/05/2016 21:58

Contraception isn't 100%. Even with depo there is still a small chance of pregnancy. Same with the implant and coil.

To have come to this decision other factors will have been looked at.
How many babies and intervention is needed before someone has to say enough?
Some people are saying that ss etc should be working with her. Sending her on courses. There's the assumption that none of these strategies have been tried. Mum and baby units, supported living etc.
Some people don't have the capacity to make these decisions for themselves.
Others don't give a fuck.

houseeveryweekend · 29/05/2016 22:02

God. No. Never. That is utterly horrendous.

MyNewBearTotoro · 29/05/2016 22:16

I guess it's difficult to say that a woman should be sterilised because, for example, children with FAS should never be born. My (adopted) cousin has FAS and has a happy and productive life. He has had many challenges and health complications growing up but I don't think he or his family would say it would be better if he hadn't been born. If we allow forced sterilisation to prevent children with disabilities being born could forced sterilisation then be enforced ft a mother who has a genetic condition? What about forced abortions (eg: when a fetus is shown to have Down's Syndrome) be the next step? That is far too close to eugenics for me. I suppose when you look at forced sterilisation to stop a baby being born with the effects of drug/ alcohol addiction and thus put the welfare of a future child before a woman's reproductive rights there is an extent to which it supposes that disabled lives can't be worth living. I don't know, it's very difficult and I am glad these are not decisions I have to make in my line of work.

DioneTheDiabolist · 29/05/2016 22:41

We do not lock up suicidal people. And their situations are very different to women who feel sexual desire and want to have sex with men. What do you do there? Thankfully we have left the days where we locked up women because they wanted sex.

As for drug/alcohol dependency. Yes they can be forced into rehab, but you can't force someone to engage in therapy. And what do you do with those who relapse as soon as they are released. I would like to see more money spent on MH, but believing that rehab can cure an addict is naive at best.

facebookrecruit · 29/05/2016 22:54

Yes. Drug addicts who continue to get pregnant and the babies are born with the addiction. The thought of a newborn going through withdrawal is truly horrifying and makes my blood run cold

Iknownuffink · 29/05/2016 23:04

Yes. A known drug addict in this area had her baby on a bus. That baby is now being treated for withdrawal. The mother signed herself out and walked away leaving her child in hospital.

Another. privately educated has had 15 pregnancies in the last 20 years. There are at least four children in care within the family. The others who survived are in the care of social services.

BeJayKayven · 29/05/2016 23:09

Yes, but only in extreme and carefully judged situations. For both men and women.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 29/05/2016 23:25

When you start looking at forced sterilisation as a punitive measure or to prevent undesirables breeding then you have to wonder where the line is drawn and who gets to choose.

Kpo58 · 29/05/2016 23:30

The problem is that if you can never do any forced sterilisation, then how do you stop people who keep having children who have to go straight into care. Do we let them have 20+ children who others are forced to look after because they are too irresponsible?

Sunnsoo · 29/05/2016 23:34

In a perfect world, we wouldn't need forced sterilization.

However, we don't live in a perfect world, we live in an imperfect world, and in our imperfect world, we do need forced sterilization.

Baby P's mum is younger than me and has been released from prison. It is only a matter of time before she starts having kids, she should be sterilized, or locked up.

Yes, it's not nice, but it's nicer than bringing babies into care unnecessarily

Iknownuffink · 29/05/2016 23:41

More education in schools would be a good thing.

Teach lads that when they ride bareback THEY WILL HAVE TO PROVIDE FOR THAT CHILD until said child is out of education. Irrespective of the income of the foster/ adopting parents.

Women may be left holding the baby. Sperm donors in this instance should be held responsible.

It takes two to make a baby. Both should be held accountable.

AgingJuvenileBinkyHuckaback · 29/05/2016 23:44

We still don't have any cases linked to where sterilisation has been ordered in the interests of potential children. We've got two where it's in the interests of the patients themselves, which is pretty normal, but that's it. Are there any UK cases where sterilisation has been ordered to prevent harm to potential children?

Birdsgottafly · 29/05/2016 23:46

""Do we let them have 20+ children who others are forced to look after because they are too irresponsible?""

People are desperate to adopt babies. So desperate that they're looking to underdeveloped countries, to get newborns, so I don't think that anyone will be forced into looking after these children, tbh.

It's a dangerous road to go down.

I can see why we (as a society) would want this, but I don't agree with it, on oppression of Human Rights, grounds.

facebookrecruit · 30/05/2016 00:04

The horror bag that is baby Ps mum is a perfect example of the pond life which should be sterilised against their will. What that poor boy went through and she can now go out there and get pregnant again. Horrifying

MyNewBearTotoro · 30/05/2016 00:12

People are desperate to adopt healthy babies but it does get more complex if the baby has significant learning disabilities or health needs. Some prospective parents are also put off from adopting a baby if the biological parents have significant mental health issues/ addiction problems etc as there can be a genetic link so there is an increased risk the biological child of a patent with, for example, schizophrenia may develop it themselves. Prospective adoptive parents are able to state whether they would or would not be willing to adopt a baby with a learning disability/ family history of mental health disorders/ complex medical needs etc.

Unfortunately there is no guarantee that it will always be possible to find good adoptive parents for all babies who find themselves in the care system.

Myusernameismyusername · 30/05/2016 00:15

Surely it would depend on their mental capacity with decision making.

Myusernameismyusername · 30/05/2016 00:18

Pressed post too soon

I am not torn in that it might not be right for say, baby p's mother to have more children and they would be removed, but you probably couldn't order her to do it if she has mental capacity to understand the consequences of her actions.

Whereas if someone doesn't have full mental capacity to make good choices it might also be in their own best interests to make such a ruling for them, to protect children and themselves

NeedsAsockamnesty · 30/05/2016 00:24

Whereas if someone doesn't have full mental capacity to make good choices it might also be in their own best interests to make such a ruling for them, to protect children and themselves

We do not use medical procudures to make people make good choices, the court of protection is very very clear that we cannot prevent someone making bad choices and we shouldn't have the right to, all we can do is make choices for them if they cannot make a choice themselves. If the choice they wish to make is a bad one if they can understand and have capacity to make it then they get to do it