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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if you agree with forced sterilisation?

239 replies

NeedACleverNN · 29/05/2016 16:24

An acquaintance I know has been court ordered to be sterilised. No choice.

I don't know the exact details but I do know several children have already been removed on welfare issues.

Whilst I feel sorry for her because she loves children, I do think the judge made the right choice. She has a few mental health problems and struggles to take care of herself let alone dependent children.

Do you think judges should be able to do this or not?

OP posts:
SaveMeNoww · 30/05/2016 19:37

My babies were born addicted to heroin. They are beautiful, happy, thriving and adored.

There is nothing on earth that will ever make me believe it would be better for them not to have been born.

AppleSetsSail · 30/05/2016 19:51

Sorry, can someone clarify the comment upthread a bit - are women with Downs somehow 'dissuaded' from having babies in the UK? That strikes me as grossly fascist.

EmilyBohemia I found your post very poignant. That said, I'm uncertain about your reasoning because surely every woman who has ever had an abortion would have otherwise had a child who grew into an adult happy to be alive - right? So this is a constant - and in my view, not a good enough reason in and of itself to have a child.

Of course this doesn't solve the debate of abortion, or less still forced abortion - it's just an underlying thread that informs my view on it.

bostonkremekrazy · 30/05/2016 20:00

Apple - I think the case upthread was 2 people with Downs syndrome and associated learning disabilities who did not have capacity or the parenting skills required to care for a baby being dissuaded from having a baby and subsequently having that baby removed by SS for very good reason.

Other people with Downs syndrome do have babies though i don't know any personally. It depends on their ability to care for a baby appropriately as assessed by SS.

I parent 3 children with SEN - adopted children who were removed by SS, birth mother has had multiple children, each removed at birth - lifestyle has not changed at all despite support and opportunities to change at the beginning. 10 years on still having babies, still the same situation yet no contraception - just pregnancy after pregnancy - and foster carers and adopters pick up the pieces. Yes i love my children dearly - would i wish their difficulties upon anybody - absolutely not - and FAS is 100% preventable, you just put your baby before yourself and don't drink during your pregnancy . Its desperately sad for all concerned, but especially for the children who have to overcome challenges that their peers do not.

bloodyteenagers · 30/05/2016 20:08

It won't lead to sterilisation for people on benefits.
its not a new thing.

It's not a case of having a child and having an addiction so the courts say right lets sterilise.

Look at the cases that are reported. Several babies all taken in to care. During these pregnancies and in between lots and lots
Of support will be offered.

Ok. So let's look at the flip side. We change
The laws to say no more. Is that no more sterilisation or no more anyone giving consent for anyone else medically?
What about the female that has been given loads of help and support. But she still continues to get pregnant and the baby
Is taken. You cannot watch people 24/7 to say the most vulnerable won't go out and have sex. So what every bloke has to commit and Iq test before he fucks someone? Database of Dna to get every guy that fucks someone vulnerable?

How do you stop the heroin addict from going bareback to get a higher amount for drug money?

Oh enforce contraception? But we cannot. It's messing with the woman's autonomy. It's forcing someone to have contraception against their will. How will it be monitored? Contraception isn't 100% so the cycle continues.

It's not just about fas. It's abuse as well. You really think if mum could show during the pregnancy that she had changed the baby will still be taken? No. But that's not what always happens. The mum exhibits behaviour that is alarming to those close to her.

Again. This is why I still believe it's a case by case situation.

Mummamayhem · 30/05/2016 20:28

Truth is there are very few intentionally cruel and sadistic mothers out there, not many want to fail at motherhood and loose their child I can assure you.

What I mean is support women in bettering themselves having lost their child/children and to prevent further tragedies instead of just giving a women one less option in her life. Help empower her, she's lost everything she doesn't need punishment.

bloodyteenagers · 30/05/2016 20:40

But for how long do you offer support before have to say this isn't working?

Surely sometimes, as in the case of the
Lady who would have died, sterilisation gave her a chance? Scenarios such as those won't be a one off either.

Wordsaremything · 30/05/2016 20:44

Yes. The planet is dying.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 30/05/2016 20:53

saveme

My babies were born addicted to heroin. They are beautiful, happy, thriving and adored. There is nothing on earth that will ever make me believe it would be better for them not to have been born

I can see where you are coming from but I disagree with this. Saying you would prefer that less babies are born addicted to heroin in the future, is not the same as wishing your children didn't exist.

I personally think there should be less teenage parents. My dh is the product of teenager parents. My opinion regarding wanting fewer teenage parents doesn't mean I wish he didn't exist.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 30/05/2016 20:54

Forgot to meantioned I completely agree with bologragh

Slippery slope arguments are seductive, but are themselves slippery slopes

Rainbunny · 30/05/2016 21:04

I'm afraid I don't think forced sterilisation is acceptable. It's such a fundamental right to have control over your own body. I consider this to be doing the wrong thing for the right reasons, but it still remains the wrong thing. Of course I understand wanting to prevent awful situations from occurring but I think the price is too high. Would we support forced lobotomies for violent offenders if we knew it would guarantee they would never be dangerous again? Or forcibly give rapists drugs that would render them chemically castrated if we knew it would prevent them from raping again? Where do you draw the line in the name of the social good? Was it acceptable in China that pregnant women were forcibly given abortions because they violated the one child policy?

It's so tempting to take a course of action that is cheaper, simpler and permanently fix a problem, and the alternative of greater social services intervention and counselling is more costly, imperfect, bound to fail in many cases there will be children brought into the world in awful conditions still but yet the removal of a fundamental right to bodily autonomy is still a greater cost. Of course I admit that I don't work in social services, perhaps if did I would change my mind completely about this.

AlpacaPicnic · 30/05/2016 21:04

Vestal, I know the thread has moved on a little but to answer you... I made no comment about the father being given a vasectomy but that doesn't mean I don't think it would be a good idea - however my concern is that one day these accumulated pregnancies are going to kill the lady, or have very serious effects on her health let alone her mental well being. If the husband was treated, there would be nothing to protect her from being made pregnant by someone else. I'm not explaining myself very well I know, it's such an emotive subject but I feel that in my case, it's the lady I want to protect from further harm.

VestalVirgin · 30/05/2016 21:22

Fair enough, Alpaca, there is a small chance that a man who is not her husband might rape her, or she might seek out a fertile man despite her religious fanatism.

But still - in a sexist world where bodily autonomy for women is not the default, I do not think that forced sterilisation can ever be a good idea. Sterilising women who are not in a state to give consent, but can (and do) give assent, okay. That's not forced sterilisation, though a court may have to get involved for legal reasons.

To those who claim that it's a slippery slope argument: We can look at reality, and draw conclusions.

We can observe that in the US, death penalty is disproportionately used to kill black people, some of whom are innocent. It logically follows that giving a government the power to kill people is not a good idea.

We can also observe that there is a tendency for governments to use sterilisation as a means to harm poor women and disabled women and women who don't belong to the "right" race.

On the other hand, it is obvious that not being allowed to carry a rifle has never led to not being allowed to use a kitchen knife.

And while the whole legal system is certainly usedm especially in the US, to further racist agenda, wrongly imprisoned people can still be freed.
Who is dead, stays dead, and who is sterile, stays sterile.

emilybohemia · 30/05/2016 23:23

Apple, the thing with my birth mother is that she really didn't want an abortion and she had to really fight to make it clear she wasn't going to have one. There is a huge difference between a woman choosing to have an abortion and a woman being pressurised to have one because she has a mental illness. So my point, if there was one, I didn't explicitly have one really, I'd that in the past women were pressured to take steps to not procreate because they didn't fit society's view of a decent enough mother.

NeedAScarfForMyGiraffe · 01/06/2016 10:27

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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