To ask if you agree with forced sterilisation?

[NeedACleverNN]

An acquaintance I know has been court ordered to be sterilised. No choice.

I don't know the exact details but I do know several children have already been removed on welfare issues.

Whilst I feel sorry for her because she loves children, I do think the judge made the right choice. She has a few mental health problems and struggles to take care of herself let alone dependent children.

Do you think judges should be able to do this or not?

I'm not sure you have all the details.
There are fantastic schemes such as
this
one- is it possible the Mum is confused.

How far can the judges push it though?

A woman who cannot make a cognitive decision. Fine

What about a woman who murders her own child?

People can dissapear refuse injections cause a huge fuss etc etc i hope the decision in this case wasnt taken lightly

I'm not sure you have all the details.
There are fantastic schemes such as
this
one- is it possible the Mum is confused

I don't think so. She has care of her grandchildren at the moment so is heavily involved with social services

I guess what I feel is that if a woman does not have the capacity to consent to sterilisation/pregnancy, then I'd have to ask if she had the capacity to consent to sex, in which case she would be being raped.

However I know that capacity is decision-specific, and since it is possible to separate sex and procreation, I guess it is feasible that someone might be able to consent to sex without the other. Would she understand the risk of STIs though?

I'd also ask, why not longterm reversible contraception but I guess she might remove it herself.

In general then I don't agree with it but I can well imagine there might be circumstances making it the least worst option.

Didn't even think this was possible but yes i do agree.

I don't know. It's difficult and in the one hand I feel every person should have autonomy over their body but then you also have to think of the welfare of unborn children. My auntie fosters sick newborns, many of whom have foetal alcohol syndrome or need to be weaned off drugs they were exposed to in the womb. Over a period of several years she had several babies from the same mother and there was talk about the mother being sterilised - not sure whether it did happen or not but in that case there was the welfare of any future children, who would be at risk of being born with disabilities/ health problems as a result of their mothers addiction, to think of. It's hard to say in such a case whether the welfare of hypothetical children outweighs the rights of the mother.

I would feel more comfortable about the court ordering a temporary, reversible contraceptive method such as the coil or implant rather than sterilisation though as in the case of mental health/ addiction though there is always a possibility the woman's circumstance and ability to be a parent could change.

appocalypse there is schemes like this up and down the country court ordered usually when a child is on the CPR as i said sometimes nothing works and children are abused and sometimes die if children are constantly at risk from parents then i think they should stop having babies

Yes, I do agree with it certain circumstances.

The judges in the Court of Protection (and some parts of the Family Division) deal with cases where decisions are never easy & mostly don't have a right answer, just a "least bad" answer.

They deal with all kinds of people who don't have capacity - children, dementia sufferers, the mentally ill, those who will never have the ability to make adequate decisions for themselves.

MrsJ do you mean the scheme I linked to 'Plan'?
Or are you saying that judges are ordering NT women are to be sterilised? Because that really isn't true.

How is this legal?

This woman obviously has problems. Instead of sterilizing her, they should help her. Perhaps she needs to go to a clinic and get therapy, or perhaps she needs a caretaker because she's not an adult, mentally.

Like MrsTerryPratchett, I'd like to know whether they will sterilize all the men who decided to have vaginal intercourse without condom with a woman who isn't capable of looking after children, while having not intention of taking responsibility for the children themselves.

If they don't plan on doing that, then this is just another example of sexism.

I don't know if I agree with it or not. I have a family member who is like your acquaintance, 7 children (one deceased now due to preterm labour and uterine rupture), 6 in foster care. She just keeps on getting pregnant, with different men. She has alcohol and drug issues too, so each child is being born with increasingly worse health problems. I'd be of the idea, that in that situation a forced sterilisation would be an option but I do believe in bodily autonomy too so I'm conflicted.

The linked article was about a case concerning the Court of Protection; "The 36-year-old's history was described as "extraordinary, tragic, and complex"" and it mentioned she had significant learning difficulties and that medical advice was that a further pregnancy would be high risk and possibly life-endangering to her.

I do not think it should ever be contemplated other than when there are severe and enduring learning difficulties which are tantamount to incapacity.

And yes, the Court of Protection is the right place to decide what is teh best course of action for someone when there are significant concerns about whether they can ever understand a medical issue. Whether sterilisation or anything else.

They are also the people who make the decisions for eg the elderly with severe dementia who no longer have the capacity to consent (either directly or by approving a medical POA to a suitable person).

Only if they force it on her children's fathers too. Each of them.

I know the courts are struggling with cases where some women have had multiple pregancies and every single baby has been takne into care - how can that be good for the woman or her children?

If the woman has no capacity to consent to sex, or can consent to sex but doesn't connect that it makes babies, or does understand it makes babies but doesn't understand that she can't look after them - all of which could happen with learning difficulties - what is your answer? Keep the woman locked away and prevent her enjoying what is otherwise a happy relationship? Prevent her from meeting any men ever?

It's a very very tough decision and I suspect a least bad option after a lot of effort has been expended trying to do other options.

Are you sure she told you the truth? I think your friend lied. This is so rare in the UK.

There was a case more than a year ago with a woman with an IQ of 70 and 6 kids already and that was really controversial. I just cannot imagine it to be done by force. Her life was at risk from further pregnancies.

But you have to catch the men.

if a person was drugged and abused by multiple men

or they just met

do you waste time searching fir men who are long gone while a person gets pregnant by someone else all together

or do you protect the woman

if those me abused/raped her yes they need to find and prosecute but these cases take months of not years sometimes amd that would do nothing to prevent a pregnancy

Well let's forget about my friend for the moment and just ask in general

Is forced sterilisation ever ok?

I have no problem with this being done in the circumstances described. It's not something that is done routinely and without all other options exhausted.

Yes i totally agree with it for people that cannot look after children properly, its not fair on the children is it?

I think courts will only order this in cases where the mother's life is at risk if she gets pregnant again, and when she is not mentally capable of taking a decision on the issue. They have a duty to act in her best interests. Therefore they will only order forced sterilisation in the most extreme of cases and after every other alternative has been thoroughly considered. I think we do need to have the power to do this available to the courts.

I don't know if I agree or not, it was something that was discussed for an acquaintance of mines daughter. She is an alcoholic and heroin addict, also hep positive. She has had 5 children, 2 of which have been adopted by the grandmother and the other 3 who were born severely disabled due to her drug and alcohol abuse. These children have been taken into care as she was incapable of looking after them, she is now in prison. The whole story is so so sad. But at what point to you say that she clearly cannot take adequate bith control and no more children should be made to suffer because of her poor choices.

Bitchpeas I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Why allow certain people to have children to neglect and abuse them and ruin their lives and create an ongoing situation of abuse for future generations. People like that inmho, forfeit their rights.

BTW I wish it were done to men who father innumerable children by umpteen different women and refuse to support their offspring. Preferably with two bricks.........and so as not to be inhumane I'd give him a stick to bite down on.................