To think school trip shouldn't be to a creationist zoo?

[SouperSal]

DH and I have issues about animal welfare and creationism.

Class at DD's (non-faith state school) had a trip to a creationist zoo this week and now DDs teacher wants to go. We're not best pleased.

WIBU.

Wow, impressed if their animal welfare is better than other zoos

Huh?

Yes they have had animal welfare issues and still keep their animals in the absolute bare minimum size enclosures. And they have posters up stating that evolution is a lie. I would (and have when it was nursery) refuse to let them take my dc and make sure they know (because so many people dont) exactly what this park preaches.

Can you go with her and then you can discuss anything that comes up?

Just looked at their website and they do seem a little nutty. I'm surprised we have such a place in the UK, TBH. I suppose it's better than that tourist attraction in the US where they have models of cavemen playing with dinosaurs (no, not the Flintstones, they really think that happened!).

YANBU. However if it's just to see the animals and not listen to any propaganda talks I suppose it's OK.

It may be easier to avoid the religious bit if you are a member of the public rather than on a school visit.

Generally Church and mosque visits are about having first hand experience of the place of worship and what happens there. I think a lot of parents would have a problem if school visits to places of worship were an attempt to convert their children to a particular religion.

I think it would depend on how the trip was presented to parents. If a school was doing a trip to a church/ mosque etc the reason for going is clear. As an atheist I would have no problem with that type of trip. This feels a bit religion by stealth. I would be concerned that schools were not making the ethos of this place clear. I'd probably have raised my eyebrows at the name but you have to explore the website a bit to find out what it is about.

Nowhere did i notice gods zoo on the website i know creationism is a bit out there but it looks a nice place run by a religious organisation I dont think you can say you want her to learn about belief systems and then say this is a step to far. Children can learn about god and not be brainwashed being an enthusuastic athiest is fine but your dd will miss out as she goes through school she will visit places of worship you have to ime take a deep breath and let her explore the world and learn for herself that religion exists

Is it that you have issues with animal welfare linked to creationism, or are those two separate concerns? If the latter, surely any zoo would raise animal welfare concerns (should hot climate animals really be shipped over here for our entertainment, even if they are well cared for?). If the former, do you have particular reasons to believe this creationist zoo is using their faith as an excuse to run a sub-par zoo?

I've not been there, no idea how it functions as a zoo, but I think I'd be happy to send my kids along on a trip. Just as I'd be happy to let them hear about evolution and any other theories people want to talk about. Kids need to see that there are lots of different beliefs and ideas, then interesting discussions can happen and they can make their own, informed choices as they grow up. They're hardly likely to become radicalised Christian creationists off the back of one school trip, especially if it's as low key as others have said, so I'd just see it as a chance to have a good chat about different beliefs, and see what they think about it all :) wouldn't say it's harmful though.

If you're really concerned though, then do ask about going to the other zoo. No harm either way, as I see it :)

(if the Noah's ask zoo mistreats it's animals for some creationist reason, then that would be more of a reason to avoid it - but I'm not sure how they'd get away with it in the UK?!)

Man I type slowly. Just seen a PP mentioned welfare concerns. Going to go and research that :) that would be the only thing that would change my opinion on visiting or not.

This article by Alice Roberts (TV scientist/presenter who lives nearby) gives a good rundown of the reasons why it's not really appropriate as a school trip: Why I won't go back to Noah's Ark creationist zoo.

I boycott them for the same reasons, plus their animal welfare standards and ethics are low enough for them to have been expelled from the British and Irish zoo industry body. They seem to see the animals purely as a money-making and proselytising opportunity, and have no concern for conservation and the best interests of the animals.

Bristol Zoo would be a much better choice for a school, or one of the many farm parks in the region, or Slimbridge wildfowl centre.

To me the 'creationist' aspect is secondary to the fact that it's a animal prison zoo.

The animal demonstration bit is explicitly religious. Or was. I don't know if schools can avoid that?

This is one of many reports on the concerns over Noah's Ark's treatment of animals: www.bornfree.org.uk/campaigns/elephants/news/article/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=1531

OP I'm of exactly the same thinking as you and I agree!
I don't like zoos anyway for a start.

I know of an animal rights group over that way, and the welfare of the animals at the Noahs Ark place is debateable at best, it's not like they are trying to save/preserve/study animals like London Zoo etc at worst there have been some real problems.

Also it's not about whether you can avoid the preaching or not, I refuse to give money to organisations like that.
Learning about other religions/world views are important, but when a school visits a church/mosque they are not making a profit, and they are there to learn about that religion specifically.

That zoo is preaching by stealth, and making money to further the creationist message, whilst treating animals like shit.

No way would I endorse that with my money/presence!

It is an odd place.
I don't agree with the creationist message, and would not be happy with a school trip there, essentially teaching an incorrect scientific message.
There have also been serious concerns about their animal welfare standards and they were kicked out of BIAZA (British and Irish association of Zoos and Aquaria)

Just skimmed that article exexpat great read, thanks for sharing, will read it properly.

Lots of animal welfare concerns at that place btw, just messaged a friend over there and she has been involved in protests against them for their treatment.

I would talk to the teacher about it, and suggest alternatives. I wouldn't want mine going there either, both the ethos and the welfare standards are abhorrent. Maybe show her the Alice Roberts article?

www.captiveanimals.org/news/2013/06/noahs-ark-zoo-farm-does-business-with-another-notorious-circus-trainer

CAPS are a bit ott, but here is some info.

I really wouldn't be happy about it. My first thought on looking at the website was that it looks a nice place but I really wouldn't want to give any money to an organisation that promotes creationist rubbish. The reports about its expulsion from BIAZA only compound those concerns,

Just read the article it doesnt sound as great as it looks maybe talk to the school about your concerns

Keep her home, write a letter to the school, and take her to another place where they keep animals in a better environment. I was a bit sceptical when I read the title of your post because I basically think there is no point in trying to isolate children from various theories, I prefer if they are exposed to different ideas and religions so that they know it exists and cam make up their own mind, but the animal welfare issues you are raising are totally valid.

I've been twice with Brownies and didn't even know about the creationist bit!

Bristol zoo did a better classroom type thing, and has a little child friendly high ropes course (extra cost but optional), but the adults and kids enjoyed both places

Yanbu

I live in bristol we love longleat, West Midlands safari park, Cotswolds wildlife park, bristol zoo, wild place, bristol aquarium I will never set foot in Noah's ark despite their range of big animals and their newly introduced spectacled bears which are one of my favourite animals.

I cannot support an organisation that preaches creationist message as fact no matter how subtle it is

I have been there with my kids. Tbh, neither read any biblical stuff, the only things they read was the fact sheets about the animals on the enclosures. Both loved the day out. However, we didn't attend the talk. I think it's fairly harmless and when we went, there was a school trip there. I wouldn't worry about it, just let your dc have a nice day out.

When It comes to the beliefs side, I don't get why you would be happy for them to go a mosque or other religious building but not here?