to complain that DD had an Empire Day theme at Rainbows?

[DancesWithTimMinchin]

DH is from a former colony. We don't think celebrating our history of colonisation is appropriate or inclusive. When we complained, the people who organise the Rainbow's didn't think there was anything inappropriate about celebrating Empire Day as a theme for a history-based afternoon.

AWBU?

I found it interesting that David Cameron reinstated the British Empire Medal recently. (And of course we still have OBEs, CBEs and MBEs.)

Given that Empire Day has been transformed into Commonwealth Day - for most people - and the Empire Games have become the Commonwealth Games, it seems an odd move on DC's part.

dizzytomato - you still don't get it. Of course I don't own it, (what a ridiculous idea) it just gives me a different perspective to you, perhaps. It is possible for me to be a historian too, which I am by academic background.

Still quite patronising - but then, what's new, this is mumsnet.

We'll have to agree to continue to disagree, perhaps without the need to impugn my motives or my intellect.

Those of you making this argument, how do you feel about the Confederate Flag? In the recent debate about removing it from the grounds of the South Carolina statehouse, this was the main argument made by those who wanted it to continue to fly. It's an argument that is still being made across the Southern US as other states have removed it from official settings.
Would they hang the British flag instead? I doubt it.

How patronising - I have no rose-tinted glasses, imperial history is my own family history, I am the descendant of slaves. It was of it's time; I know there is a lot more to it and older children will learn about other aspects - but these are 6 year olds! Would you let six year olds wear nazi uniform because they don't understand the reason behind it? The empire is not that different to nazi Germany. They had their empires too. The British took over some of the countries from Germany.

Given that Empire Day has been transformed into Commonwealth Day - for most people - and the Empire Games have become the Commonwealth Games, it seems an odd move on DC's part. It would not surprise me if he wishes Britain still had the empire the way it did. Probably it's the reason why him and thatcher both supported apartheid in the 80s.

Comparing the the British empire to Roman Empire and how people should see it today is laughable. Fgs, you still have countries that have the queen as head of state, ie Australia and Jamaica etc. Every time briatian thinks they are going to ask to become a republic a Royal tour ensues. Still trying to hold on on to the little bit left.

If you still have survivors from the Mau-mau rebellion living with the scars and their descents asking for compensation for the way they were treated. you cannot say it's something of the past. What a disgrace.

Maybe this link might be of interest.
www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/23/mau-mau-rebellion-kenyan-victims-compensation-claim

should have just sent her dressed as Darth Vadar.

YANBU - it is nothing to be proud of at all.

I often think it is very difficult to give lots of topics the depth and gravitas lots of topics need.

Although I do think if everyone who wanted a quiet word, or gave a suggestion, or complained about X,y and z actually joined in to run these organisations it would no longer be struggling for leaders.

OP, are you trolling us? Your DH is from a former colony ad you both obviously feel strongly about your children's heritage. So wtf are you both doing sending sending your dd to rainbows? Do you just pick and choose which parts of the Former British Empire you dislike? Or are you blithely unaware that Lord Baden Powell is sat at the Top Table of Jingoists right next to Cecil Rhodes. It's a totally appropriate day to celebrate for a movement that's based upon his values. Get off your high horse or do some research

I was at school in 1950s and we never did Empire Day- in fact I didn't know there was one. I presume this is a history idea- I never see why history is airbrushed out.
I would be very careful what you say to volunteers because my first instinct as one would be to say to OP 'when are you free to come to a planning meeting and which week could you lead a theme?'
Someone earlier said that they were not conscripted they volunteered- possibly not aware at how short the Guides/Scouts/Youth Clubs etc are of leaders. They generally do it because they want to put something back into the community - if you are lucky enough to have some you need to treat them well and not tell them what they should be doing, with no intention of putting any time or effort in yourself.

Mountains and mole hills OP...........

As a volunteer in a similar organisation myself, yes they should have understood what they were doing. But if he adults don't, why should the 5YO. I don't think your DD has been eternally corrupted.

Point it out to the leaders carefully. You may well find you can be told where to shuv your advice!! Alternatively you may well be welcomed into the leadership team with open arms (& then you'll know how blooming difficult it is to deal with pretentious, ungrateful parents on a continual basis on a night when you really can't be arsed and would like to stay home in your PJ's, but have made a commitment to put on a smile and entertain 20 little shits darlings)

Actually, isit I think you'll find that the Guiding and Scouting movement have worked very hard to distance themselves from Baden Powell and his role in Colonialism, and have work very hard over the last 30 years to become inclusive and up-to-date with modern Britain - hence my surprise at the choice of activity. I send my daughters to all of the stages in the Girl Guiding movement to learn to be helpful, considerate and kind members of their community. My girls have been in the movement a collective 14 years and this is the first instance of any non-inclusive activity.

I think you'll also fine that this has been discussed extensively up fred, with numerous people who work as leaders in the movement commenting - although you clearly haven't bothered to read it. So perhaps before you tell me to do some research on a topic, why don't you bother to do the back ground reading . How is it looking on your high horse then?

"It's a totally appropriate day to celebrate for a movement that's based upon his values. Get off your high horse or do some research"

You are taking the piss, aren't you?

Oh look - the judgy, PO brigade have arrived....

with no intention of putting any time or effort in yourself.
I help out all the time, at Rainbows, Brownies and Guides - but thanks for assuming the worst of me Fresh.

As already discussed extensively on the thread, just because they are volunteers does not mean they do not need to be sensitive when they do their planning.

I may be missing the point here, but children who attend Rainbows are what, 5/6 years old?

How exactly did the leaders introduce the concept of Empire Day in a way that they could fully understand?

And, if the answer is, they didn't, why were they doing it in the first place?

dizzytomato hmm - you still don't get it.

No I really really don't get it, I do not get why it is ok to celebrate the Empire. Given that you have now informed everyone you are a historian, please enlighten me because my knowledge of the Empire can find nothing to be proud of, let alone celebrate!!

If you are regular helper OP then there is nothing wrong in having a full discussion about why it is inappropriate and suggesting an alternative that you could organise.

So many racists on mumsnet, as per usual. It's absolutely disgusting. I've had enough tbh. As someone with ties to a former colony who has seen the damage firsthand, I literally cannot believe these responses. I don't think mumsnet is for me anymore. I used to recommend this place as interesting, witty and intelligent, and I used to believe I shared the values of the majority of users. But as a black person I really cannot remain here. I only hope this place doesn't represent what the average English person thinks otherwise I might as well give up for me and my children. Horrific thread.

But what was their reply to your DH's query?

I'm a brownie leader and I've never heard of empire day.

As a leader, I would like to know if parents had an issue with things to help us when planning as we're meant to be girl led and I can't imagine a rainbow age girl asking for an empire day.

Hearing empire makes me think of making empire biscuits.

I'd definitely recommend you asking the leaders where it came about and why they used such theme instead of saying it was a party for the queen's birthday or such like.

Right, wrong or misplaced, Rainbows and other guiding/scouting groups are run by volunteers who may or may not have as much awareness of what is considered culturally appropriate, particularly in rurally deprived/non urban areas. (Am a fellow East Anglian but also a teacher of English/history/culture studies) I know for a fact that aggressive political correctness is wasted on these lovely volunteers who give up so much of their time to run clubs for our children. Maybe offer to give up some of your own time for Rainbows and then you can steer the celebrations into a more educational tone, such as celebrations of other cultures!

I'd definitely recommend you asking the leaders where it came about and why they used such theme instead of saying it was a party for the queen's birthday or such like. The DH did but we've yet to hear the reply.

The DH did but we've yet to hear the reply

That is because it is already discussed up fred. They needed a theme, googled the date, saw it used to Empire Day and decided that would do.

Just seen that op does volunteer-apologies! I just know that rural areas are sometimes ignorant of these sorts of issues. I don't think they would be consciously being racist in their organising of such an event, it just might be worth pointing out/educating them about the impact of colonisation in world history. As I said, a celebration of the end of the empire and a rising celebration of the cultures that had once been oppressed.

Maybe they will have learned from their mistake.

Well the whole thing is a ham fisted mess but hardly worth getting into such a state about. Empire Day is something I've never heard of despite being well over 50. The theme is not appropriate for such little children. Make your objections and move on.