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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to complain that DD had an Empire Day theme at Rainbows?

449 replies

DancesWithTimMinchin · 24/05/2016 21:54

DH is from a former colony. We don't think celebrating our history of colonisation is appropriate or inclusive. When we complained, the people who organise the Rainbow's didn't think there was anything inappropriate about celebrating Empire Day as a theme for a history-based afternoon.

AWBU?

OP posts:
Just5minswithDacre · 25/05/2016 20:51

Don't go Nice teeth the golly-living, UKIP-voting faction are a minority but they flock to threads like this. The more sensible are here, the better.

I'm really sorry that you feel driven away Flowers

Just5minswithDacre · 25/05/2016 20:51

golly-loving

derxa · 25/05/2016 21:07

the golly-living, UKIP-voting faction are a minority but they flock to threads like this I hope your arrows aren't pointing to me Just because I'm as far from a racist as you can imagine. I can't imagine why a Rainbows group leader decided to do an Empire Day party. It's nonsensical.

SeeYouTomorrow · 25/05/2016 21:33

OP, yanbu.

OP has been very clear that the issue is with the title of the event. There is nothing wrong with children learning about the empire in context, but it is very wrong to celebrate it.

So many on this thread who are wilfully ignorant and proud. Threads like this serve to remind me that Mumsnet is riddled with bigots. There are not in a minority. Mumsnet has always had a problem with racists and they rub their hands with glee when threads like this pop up.

Playing spot the bigot has been entertaining this evening. Far too many unfortunately and that why as a black person I think mumsnet is really quite rubbish sometimes.

carefreeeee · 25/05/2016 22:20

Well I never learnt anything about the Empire in school. My Dad who was at school in the fifties learnt about how great it all was.

I know that German schools teach an awful lot about the Holocaust and Germans know all about what went on.

Here in Britain we still seem to be under the impression that the Empire was a benign if slightly misguided institution.

No wonder so many people don't see the problem with celebrating Empire day

sashangel · 25/05/2016 22:22

I volunteer with Rainbows and we wouldn't "celebrate" empire day. If we were doing something about it we would possibly talk about what the empire was (in an age appropriate way) and that it is now called the commonwealth. We would probably try lots of different foods and dress up.

We did once have a parent complain that we had an activity to make something for fathers day. The girls were asked to make a medal from a paper plate for their dad/grandad/uncle/friend or whoever they wanted. The girl in question made it for her dad. Grandma picked her up. Later that evening I got a phone call from mum complaining that we had no right to make her make a fathers day gift. I explained that they could make it for whoever they wanted but she must have chose her dad.
Turns out that girl hadn't seen her father for 9 months after he ran off with mum's best friend. I had to try and calm her down as advised her that next time we did anything about fathers day we would let her know in advance so she could keep dd away if she wished. She was mightily pissed off that we wouldn't cancel the next year's fathers day as she enjoyed her hour to herself.

A friend of mine had a complaint about a lady who came from Pakistan and came into talk about her life and brought in food and clothes for them to try. The parents problem : the lady was a Muslim and told the kids that she was and she was going on pilgrimage to mecca.

Sometimes we are damned if we do damned if we don't.

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow · 25/05/2016 22:38

I think that if people really knew about the atrocities perpetuated by the British Empire in its quest for expansion they wouldn't think it appropriate to celebrate.

The problem is most people don't know because they are not taught in schools.

Headofthehive55 · 25/05/2016 23:03

Helping out us not quite the same as running the unit. Why didn't you say something beforehand...do they not hand out a program for the half term? Maybe that would help as you would get advance warning - rather than it being sprung on you.

fastdaytears · 26/05/2016 00:54

The problem is most people don't know because they are not taught in schools

I actually think this is the root of it. I've learnt more about the empire from googling after reading this thread than I ever knew before.

Original poster
DancesWithTimMinchin · 26/05/2016 05:46

Helping out us not quite the same as running the unit.
Really, again I am fully aware of that. I was responding to the accusation that I had no intention of putting in the time myself. I do find it odd that the sticking point on this thread has become the fact that I don't have a right to point out something is non-inclusive and offensive to many just because I don't run the unit. Hmm
But for the record, if I must explain why I do not run the unit, I have 3 children in 3 different phases of the movement. As a leader, you must know, I cannot bring my older or younger children to meetings while I am there for insurance purposes. More specifically in the case of the Rainbows, one of my DDs has a ballet class 10 miles away at the same time, and I do a large scale people manoeuvre just to get them both where they need to be every week. When my DDs are old enough that I can give my time freely and with complete commitment, I will get a warrant and become a guide leader (I am a high school teacher, so preteen are more my thing). I was in the Brownies and the Guides (in a former colony I might add) and would love to give back, but I have to be able to do it properly - now is not the time.
I hope this puts everyone's minds at rest that I am unselfish enough to be allowed to have concerns that an activity is inappropriate not that it matters that they are volunteers as has been pointed out on the thread about 100 times Hmm

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 26/05/2016 07:33

Must be so hard for the Professionally Unoffended- what with wearing blinkers all the time an' all..........

Kitsa · 26/05/2016 07:39

sashangel parents complained that a person talked about the fact they were Muslim?

Shock Shock

Where the hell do they get off?

Headofthehive55 · 26/05/2016 07:41

You can actually take your own children. It affects the ratio, but it's not disallowed. People do run units even when they have several children of all ages.

I think you should have spoken up before the session. That would have made more sense. Whilst I agree celebrating empire day seems an outdated topic, offering to help on that session would have been sensible, or not sending them that day if it offends you.

My issue with people who criticise is more that they never seem able, or prepared to step in themselves, usually citing reasons such as other children. You will find out when you become a leader that you are continually critiqued from activities, to yes meeting times. It's wearing. And unpaid.
That's why I don't do it anymore.

Kitsa · 26/05/2016 07:43

OP you do not have to justify yourself! Simply cannot believe the "they're volunteers so they can do whatever they want including racist revisionist bullshit" arguments.

I think it goes to show how very very far a lot of people on this thread are from understanding the real issue here.

fastdaytears · 26/05/2016 07:43

No problem if you're in the meeting place and bring younger kids. Only if you're out and about that it affects your ratios. But you can't be in two places at once.

Guides is a great stage- help there. Though I'm about to move from Guides to Rainbows which will be a shock.

Kitsa · 26/05/2016 07:46

(and yes, I used to be a Beaver leader, years before I had children of my own I might add, and yes the entitlement and lack of involvement from most parents was annoying, and no I do not think that this is the same type of thing as most of the petty complaints we got. It's deeply inappropriate.)

Headofthehive55 · 26/05/2016 07:58

I just think you should have spoken up before the event, not after.
Yes you do have to justify yourself. After all you are expecting the leaders to!
Why not speak up before?
I guess these ladies wouldn't have realised at all the problem...and now you possibly made them feel very awkward.

Headofthehive55 · 26/05/2016 08:12

You may find that the leaders are not English perhaps...I lived in east Anglia for a time and it was surprising how many people were foreign born, and therefore might not have a grasp of that side of history. My child had a party. Not a single child spoke English as a first language apart from my own.

BertrandRussell · 26/05/2016 08:21

"Foreign born"- therefore know nothing about the British Empire? It depends a bit where they were born.......Hmm

BertrandRussell · 26/05/2016 08:23

"My issue with people who criticise is more that they never seem able, or prepared to step in themselves,"

I agree with you up to a point- however not being a helper does not mean you are not allowed to complain about the way the group is run.

MuddhaOfSuburbia · 26/05/2016 08:55

Apols if this has been mentioned upthread- have only dipped in and out

was it a terrible cheese dream, or did Gove talk a while ago in his Big History Revision about rehabilitating the British Empire- changing the way it was taught, so that we stopped approaching it as something shameful? I think it was along with rebranding WW1 from senseless-waste-of-human-life to flag waving tubthumping rah rah jolly good giving white feathers to Siegfried Sassoon etc

I think he wanted to stress the Good Bits of the Empire [ikr fill in yours here- I'm scratching my head]

could this be...a thing

are we all going to be having Empire Day stuff at school now

Headofthehive55 · 26/05/2016 09:49

Yes it does depend on where they were born, I agree, the people whom I am thinking of may not know what it is having not been part of it.

I think it's a fair point to speak out..but better to do before rather than after. Before is more helpful, giving people chance to change, after, when it's done is just critical.

Watching someone do something that is evidently wrong and then pointing it out us like watching a child get run over when you have the means to grab onto them before they step off the road. Preventive action rather than post action critism.

UpWithPup · 26/05/2016 10:04

I think in all likelihood the rainbows have been asked what they want to do and come up with something like dress up, or be kings and Queens. The leader has had a quick Google for something to tie that in with, and seen some reference to Empire Day. For whatever reason she didn't know any better, maybe she never learnt about it at school, she saw what was happening at beamish, she looked on Wikipedia and saw no problem - all possibilities mentioned by PP.

Your husband has come along after the fact and mentioned that it wasn't really appropriate. The leader, probably busy and tired, has felt a little bit like what can I do about it now and said something a bit non-committal like, 'I saw it on Google.'

YANBU to think it wasn't the greatest idea, or to mention it to the leaders. YABU to expect them to do more than chalk it up to experience and not do it again.

derxa · 26/05/2016 10:06

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/jun/10/british-empire-michael-gove-history-teaching
Interesting article. Although history teaching in English primary schools is still very bitty. There was an attempt to focus on the timeline of history and not just look at 'The Romans' or 'The Egyptians or 'The Victorians' in isolation. When I talked to upper primary children about Empire what they were most interested in was the fact that Britain 'ruled' a good part of the world. I explained about military force,slavery and the cotton trade and that balanced their view a bit. I only did this off my own bat though. We were studying the Victorian era and 'Empire' was not part of the study module.

derxa · 26/05/2016 10:11

www.bbc.co.uk/schools/primaryhistory/victorian_britain/introduction/ This is a typically saccharine view.