To be annoyed that immigration is the main issue for most people in EU debate?

[susanketty]

Whether you are 'in' or 'out', I'm getting tired of immigration being the main issue for people - sure, it will have an impact, but brexit is not going to solve any problems with immigration that people perceive, and immigration fears does not seem to be to me a good enough reason to vote out. And voting in is not going to necessarily lead to a rush of immigrants.

We are not in the Schengen area, we have border control, and EU immigrants make a net contribution to our economy. Brexiteers often say they would like a Norway-esque agreement, which seems to me like all the problems (i.e., free movement of people) with none of the advantages other than being in the trade area (which we are already).

I just think there is more to the debate than immigration and it seems to me like it's been pushed to the front of the agenda to push more people to vote out due to fear.

Shakeba, I live in Greater London and my waiting room is mostly elderly white women!

www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/sites/www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/files/documents/BSG-WP-2015-005.pdf

"Though the political debate has mostly focused on the possible eUects of immigration on A&E, we find no evidence of signifcant effects on waiting times in A&E and elective care. Furthermore, we finnd
a reduction in waiting times for outpatients. In particular, we show that an increase in the stock of immigrants equal to 10% of the local initial population leads to a 19% reduction in outpatient waiting
times."

Um, GATT lasted untill 1994, the WTO agreements are based on the same thing are still WTO not GATT. If we're going to be pendantic about it.

We do have tariffs on imports from non EU countries, they are set by the WTO if no trade agreement is in place.

WAITING TIMES. I seem to remember, thru the mists of time that the old NHS waiting system went something like this.

You had your first appointment as a new patient, and you would not be counted in the stats as having used NHS service until your treatment was finished (several appts).

Now, you have your first appointment and you are counted as having finished medical treatment. Your second and subsequent appts are treated as if you are a New Patient again.

NHS therefore proudly continues to display how many more patients they have managed to treat in the previous year. But that does not reflect the long waiting time between appts.

Since I've already asked you that question why are you so unwilling to answer it instead of deflecting back onto me.

The express reported on that statement made by a senior police officer, are you saying you know more about ATM crime than him? Do senior police officers generally pluck figures from thin air?

I've already said how it's affected me personally. Friends have lost places at the local school to children living in HMOs, one family to a room, crammed in living on the cheap, closer to schools than them. In one instance by about 0.2 miles if I remember correctly. Houses that previously didn't have such a high occupancy of children. We don't and aren't prepared to live in those conditions. Families that have local connections to the school, parents who are governors, on the PTA, whose children have been at the school before. Friendship groups broken up after play school as children are shipped to other schools.

My DPs business is constantly undercut by polish tree surgeons. He can't match their quotes if he wants to live. They have barely any expenses, again living in HMOs, living costs shared with 6/7 other men. It is impossible to compete with them, it isn't a level playing field.

Again, street drinking and homelessness of E European men and women has risen in our town. Do I want to climb over groups of drunk men cat calling in Romanian when I go to the shops? Not really no.

We do have tariffs on imports from non EU countries, they are set by the WTO if no trade agreement is in place.

Then we may be able to have a trade agreement with other countries in the world and mutually agree a tariff of 2% !

88% of primary school chidren get offered their first choice place and 85 % of secondary chidren.

fullfact.org/education/school-places-are-we-running-out/

The circumstances of your friends, they blame the immigrant family for their child not getting the place, not the British kids who met the entrance criteria better than their own. It doesn't mean that immigration is responsible for it.

The stuff about your DP? Well that is very specific to your situation, athough even outside of the EU the immigrants already here aren't going back! In lots and lots of cases a cut to immigration would deprive busiensses of skilled workers.

The stuff about your DP? Well that is very specific to your situation, athough even outside of the EU the immigrants already here aren't going back! In lots and lots of cases a cut to immigration would deprive busiensses of skilled workers.

Do you actually know any immigrants? They frequently do go back after they've earned enough here. Presumably after we vote out they won't be coming back again, especially if they are unskilled. You quote 100000 less as if it's nothing. After 5 years that's half a million people not in the country. Why are you talking about non EU immigration. We have a points system for that. The concerns of millions of people are the numbers of unskilled, poor EU immigrants who are welcome here as long as they have an Eu passport. You'd be better off accepting instead of muddying the waters talking about non eu immigration and only 1000000 people less a year.

"Then we may be able to have a trade agreement with other countries in the world and mutually agree a tariff of 2% !"

Maybe we could, but its unlikely. We already know that we won't be negotiating a trade deal with the USA for a long time, the Japanese have also said that Brexit would deter investors.

On the trade argument I think Brexit has been roundly defeated. The fact that your leaders keep throwing up Norway and Switzerland as examples (both pay in, both have freedom of movement) shows that they don't reall have a clear idea of what being outside the EU will mean.

"Do you actually know any immigrants? They frequently do go back after they've earned enough here"

Which means they will have been net contributors to the exchequer. Yes I know immigrants, I'm friendly with the lovely Polish lady who runs the shop at the end of the road, I work with and employ immigrants so I can vouch for their paying taxes.

The ones you counter as "cash in hand" fine, but they won't use any services either then will they? Can't go to the doctor etc, can't get their kids into schools, can't claim in work benefits.

Your view of immigration seems to be entirely Daily Mail based.

we already know we won't be negotiating a trade deal with the USA for a long time How do we already know this? Because of a few empty threats from Obama who won't even be President come November?

fatdad - but do they pay enough tax to be a net contributor? According to the ONS this kicks in on average at 39k. as i understand it, most immigrants are in low paid work and some get benefits such as working tax credits to top this up.

Daily Mail.....if you knew me you would know how laughable that is. You asked for the effects on my life. I told you. Sorry if it's all a bit DM for you.

This reminds me of the "Schrodingers immigrant" point that someone much cleverer than me defined - "coming here and stealing our jobs whilst simultaneously lazing around on benefits"

I agree that the debate should be about way more than just immigration. For some people it's not though.

Having recently visited a family member in hospital for several weeks I can tell you that our local NHS hospital wouldn't be functioning without EU nurses, doctors, cleaners, catering workers.

Or working low paid jobs and also claiming benefits....perfectly plausible

The ones you counter as "cash in hand" fine, but they won't use any services either then will they? Can't go to the doctor etc, can't get their kids into schools, can't claim in work benefits

a and e, police and council are all still available to them.

Problem families cost what - 200 hundred grand a year? That's not the cost of using schools, GP and all the rest.

i am really glad you know some lovely Polish people. I do too, but its sticking your head in the sand to pretend that every single immigrant is making a positive contribution. This is the problem when we have such volume of people on the move.

You have bad apples in a barrel of 100 - 20 people - who cares.

When your in the hundreds of thousands, the no of bad apples increases and it does become a problem and we cannot stop them.

HMRC released data that said in 2013/2014 newly arrived immigrants paid in 2.5 bn more than they got out in benifits. That's a net contribution is it not.

UCL studies showed £20bn more paid in by EU immigrants than they got out in fiscal spending from 1999, I'd say that was net contribution too.

Love the schrodingers immigrant thing!

Your argument is a bit incoherent born, how many EU families are problem families?

In no way do I stick my head in the sand, I think you'll find that I'm highly read on the matter.

The fact that your leaders keep throwing up Norway and Switzerland as examples (both pay in, both have freedom of movement) shows that they don't reall have a clear idea of what being outside the EU will mean

Norway and switzerland at the time though had no issues with free movement of people so its an irrelevant point.

If you could show us, that against the will of the people, they were backed into a corner and forced to agree to this, which they did not want, you may have a point. Other wise its irrelevant because free movement it was not an issue for them. ( it may be now though)

Its an issue for us why would we agree to it?

You can have all the money in your back pocket you want, however unless your wealthy enough to live in a large house on a large plot of land, and buy your way out of the scrum at the bottom, having a little more money will not increase your quality of life, in a crowded country, with few green spaces.

fat the people I have in mind, incl one family but were mostly young - middle aged males.

The point is, problem families who use police, ambulance and a and e and other services regularly cost a lot of money. I used that example because fairly recently the figures were worked out and it was a lot of money per family.

You have cash in hand workers, needing police and ambulance call outs, council involvement etc, courts, and all the rest. Your trying to tell people these people are a positive contribution. They are not paying into the system with tax, they live on shoe string budgets so are not paying much into the local economy, and they are taking out with need of services.

This is the problem with volume and open door immigration. Yes we get lovely families, lovely children, whole communities in fact who are a positive contribution.

But I think we can live without the bad apples don't you? Because in hundreds of thousands of good people, you also get an increased amount of bad apples.

Bornfree, freedom of movement is part of the deal that comes with full access, in fact the Swiss do not have full access as they don't have an agreement on services, we would really need to seek an agreement on services as this is our largest net export.

It is rather fanciful to expect the EU to do a trade agreement with the UK where the UK gets to set all of the parameters and benefits more than member states, when I used to lurk on these boards I kept seeing this argument laid out all the time, it simply won't happen. You can go talking about "5th biggest economy" etc, but that fails to recognise that 4 other EU countries are in the top ten and that there are something like 10 in the top 30 economies. As a united force the EU is the biggest economy in the world (if we combine all of the countries GDPs) with or without the UK.

I think that the problem is that immigration has been held up as the cause of lots of societies ills for a long time.

NHS under pressure? Blame immigration, even though it can be shown to have lowered waiting times in A and E and elective surgery.

www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/sites/www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/files/documents/BSG-WP-2015-005.pdf

Immigrants are costing us in benefits, well last week's HMRC study showed that new immigrants paid in 2.5bn more than they took out and the UCL study shows that there was a net fiscal contribution of £20 bn and that if we removed all EU immigrants public services would suffer because of the fall in funding.

www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1114/051114-economic-impact-EU-immigration

EU immigration causes low paid jobs and unemployment for British nationals. Again wrong as it makes the lump of labour falacy and the LSE have researched it and found that low wage growth in the UK is not caused by EU immigration, especially as wages grew in the years 2004 -2008 when there was increased EU immigration from the EU8 countries.

cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/EA019.pdf

The school places issue is caused by underfunding and the removal of places in the 2000s when there was excess capacity. Children born to EU migrants who are attending schools in the UK will in most cases have been in the area for 3-5 years and should have been accounted for in projections, it isn't a suprise, we knew these increased numbers were coming through in 2010! Even then 88% of children get their first choice primary school.

However the media, and the Conservative party to an extent, have shaped their arguments around immigration for so long that people actually buy into their false rhetoric.

It's used as a bargaining chip throughout politics because immigration is a subject everyone has an opinion on, much like the Tudors used the Protestant v catholic divide to invite people. The issue is, however, that until the UK press are prepared (or permitted) to actually publish the real immigration figures and provide an accurate portrait of the impact, both positive and negative, of immigration in the UK, then it is, as you say, discussed at the expense of other important issues in the EU debate.

If we Brexit, the EU wouldn't be the eu of today anyway. It will be weaker, especially if -when- other countries follow suit. About 8 countries I think it's been said, would be holding their own referendums about leaving. They're all watching us with baited breath. Then trade deals wouldnt be the issue it is now were that to happen.

And that's a good thing? It would be worse for almost every country then.

It's a different thing. No one knows whether it would be worse.