To be annoyed that immigration is the main issue for most people in EU debate?

[susanketty]

Whether you are 'in' or 'out', I'm getting tired of immigration being the main issue for people - sure, it will have an impact, but brexit is not going to solve any problems with immigration that people perceive, and immigration fears does not seem to be to me a good enough reason to vote out. And voting in is not going to necessarily lead to a rush of immigrants.

We are not in the Schengen area, we have border control, and EU immigrants make a net contribution to our economy. Brexiteers often say they would like a Norway-esque agreement, which seems to me like all the problems (i.e., free movement of people) with none of the advantages other than being in the trade area (which we are already).

I just think there is more to the debate than immigration and it seems to me like it's been pushed to the front of the agenda to push more people to vote out due to fear.

The ones you counter as "cash in hand" fine, but they won't use any services either then will they?

Actually, FatDad, all they need is an NHS number from the GP. I think after that the NHS is their lobster, whether they have paid in or not.

Thanks Shakeeba btw for your long post in answer to my question.

FatDad I asked you earlier, because I know you will know - what are the UK's 3 main exports to EU?

If we Brexit, Denmark will follow but not Sweden. Let's see how willing Albania, Azerbaijan, Turkey et al will be to take up the slack. They will default on every piece of law handed down by the EU and it will be another Greece for EU.

FatDad please stop posting actual evidence by actual people who do actual research. It isn't what people want to hear, they just want to go 'lalalala anecdote' with their fingers stuck in their ears.

YANBU OP. I see and hear talk about Brexit that is frankly embarassing. So many people seem to think if UK is out of the EU all immigration problems will suddenly be solved, borders will be closed, stricter points system introduced etc

Its all bullshit. Brexit is not going to be a magic pill that solves immigration problems. Nothing will happen. The model of chaos the government has created works all too well, as it has for previous governments who don't give a shit about the working classes, for 100s of years. It suits them to have people scapegoat immigrants - and nowadays, even non-immigrants who are on benefits and/or not perceived to be doing as well as Mr & Mrs Jones, as it were - so they can get on with creating heinous policies that cause hardship to everybody

Cameron is the biggest grandstander ever. I reckon he knows the vote will be a mighty landslide YES to stay in. After which point he can pompously strut around saying well, I am the mighty Prime Minister who tried to solve all our problems

As if UK government would truly want to be out of Europe and not have a say in European dealings. Please.

Its too easy to fool people with showboating

I am still undecided how I will vote. My problem is mostly with the scaremongering on both sides. No one knows what will happen if we leave the EU. Certainly as pp have said just because people vote no migrants will just disappear (I am a second generation migrant by the way). There is a bigger picture but for most people migration is a huge issue.

As far as I'm aware the top 3 are machienary, vehicles and pharmaceuticals in terms of goods.

Our largest export though is stuff like financial services, now this would suffer on brexit as for one London being the largest Euro trading centre would cease as this would be taken back within EU borders.

Numbers are magical things, are they not, pointy and far more reliable than people's firsthand observations and experiences. For example, thanks to FatDad I now understand that all the second homes in my area rented out to multiple EE people are just a figment of my imagination, and that the EE men sleeping it off in my local nick where my SiL works every Saturday night aren't really there either.

Its all bullshit. Brexit is not going to be a magic pill that solves immigration problems.

Who said that? No one on here. It will take nerves of steel and stamina to negotiate a deal better than the Norway one.

I'm not willing to trust any statistics quoted my government agencies, they have been manipulating this stuff for years to suit their agenda. I am making judgments based on what I experience in my every day life.

I'm all for immigration but it needs to be controlled. It is grossly unfair to have an open door policy when we are constantly being told we need to cut back and there's no money in the pot for basic services in health and education.

*by

we must all look at the whole picture and that will include anecdotes and even articles from the DM

But what we must remember is, the Labour gov deliberately skewed and hid immigration figures.

Even now, it seems every other day a new head line - Embarrassment for Cameron, immigration feared much higher than previously thought! etc etc etc.

So one one remember when looking at stats, they are a snap shot only.

They are only part of the picture and indeed only part of the figures, because we never did head counts, we do not know true figures.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ons-immigration-into-britain-in-the-00s-was-nearly-350000-higher-than-previously-thought-9252332.html

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/10/ons-net-immigration-underestimated

The number of eastern European immigrants coming to Britain was hugely underestimated because an official survey failed to monitor many new arrivals at regional airports, the statistics watchdog has said

""This is final confirmation that net foreign migration under Labour totals nearly 4 million, two thirds from outside the European Union. It also shows that the peak of net migration was nearly 275,000 a year, making it even more difficult for the present government to get the numbers down to tens of thousands."

Carlos Vargas Silva, senior researcher at the Migration Observatory at Oxford University, said: "We have known for some time that net migration must have been much higher during the 2001 to 2011 period than the official estimates had suggested. This report provides important evidence of the need for better migration data and of the limitations of using a survey to develop net migration data."

Please note last para in particular.

This report provides important evidence of the need for better migration data and of the limitations of using a survey to develop net migration data

^ Better migration data.

Lets face it, its hit us like a Tsunami, its changed the face of the country and no one actually knows how many people are here.

We are playing catch up in every way you can think of.

They are brilliant things Shakeeba because they take away pre concieved ideas from judgements.

I'm sure there are EE men in the local nick, but I'm sure there are UK men there too.

I'm sure there are people in rented accomodation but immigration doesn't drive up rents or house prices. Sorry it simply doesn't. EU immigration counts for 3 % of the population. There are so many more factors to do
with demand for housing than immigration.

As I said previously, immigration has become the thing to blame for the problems of society.

You can see why, for example with the schools places. Your kid didn't get a place at the school, but a child whose parents are immigrants did, the logical step is to say well my child would have got a place if it wasn't for the immigrants. But its not the case, there were 23 other children who got places other than the immigrant child but you aren't blaming them. Your child didn't fit the admissions criteria as well as that child and there may have been others who were a closer fit than yours even if that child wasn't there! Blaming it on immigration is just lazy.

Interesting about pharmaceuticals, FatDad as GSK, for one, is a multinational. They do have manufacturing sites in UK and should Brexit happen, they could invoke the "Costa Coffee" model and escape import tariff on raw materials and tariff on exporting out finished products.

I'm sure there are EE men in the local nick, but I'm sure there are UK men there too

Yes your right, I am sure there are more UK men and women in the nick. The point is, why are we letting in people who are going to end up there though>

Do you think we need people to fill our prisons? Do they benefit the country?

We should be doing our very best not to allow people in, who will end up in the Nick.

What about the sheds in gardens that are let to people. They do exist.

Also the amount of cars on the road, less people here then less cars.

Agree about the prisons.

Was it ever confirmed that there were in fact more NI numbers issued that do not tally with asylum applications?

As regards schools, FatDad I absolutely disagree here. My friend has 3 kids, the eldest has very high IQ and attends a private school which grandma pays for; the second (girl) is also exceptionally intelligent. They are fifth generation from that town, and yet she was not successful in any of her first three choices of primary school.

My friend was told, off the record, that the number of immigrant families has increased and because most of the immigrant mothers do not drive they are given a school within walking distance to them. My friend formally complained and lo and behold was granted her first choice of school afterall. At primary state level, intelligence has nothing to do with what school accepts you.

As regard drunken men at the nick, EE men have replaced the 'traditional' Irishman. Isnt that a barometer of change?

You can see why, for example with the schools places. Your kid didn't get a place at the school, but a child whose parents are immigrants did, the logical step is to say well my child would have got a place if it wasn't for the immigrants. But its not the case, there were 23 other children who got places other than the immigrant child but you aren't blaming them. Your child didn't fit the admissions criteria as well as that child and there may have been others who were a closer fit than yours even if that child wasn't there! Blaming it on immigration is just lazy

Our nearest primary school is 75% Non English as first Language. Its a fact.

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/10611050/Revealed-The-one-in-nine-schools-where-English-is-not-first-language.html

" English is no longer the first language for the majority of pupils in more than one in nine schools, new figures have revealed.

Last year the majority of children in 1,755 primary and secondary schools spoke another language at home following a sharp increase in the number of pupils with foreign born parents.

In more than 200 schools nine in ten pupils do not speak English as their mother tongue, with children speaking as many as 14 different languages"

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cash-appeal-for-school-where-no-one-speaks-english-qgrg7s6fx

A Glasgow primary school at which none of the pupils speak English as their first language and few have ever been to school has launched a fundraising appeal to help them learn and integrate.

Most pupils at Annette Street primary, in Govanhill, come from eastern Europe, including a large number of Roma from Romania and Slovakia.

Pupils whose parents have come to Scotland seeking work often arrive without ever having experienced school before and cannot speak any English.

The school is trying to raise £5,000 to buy books and games to improve the children’s English.

The sheds in the gardens? Let to unregistered immigrants, do you think coming out of the EU will stop people coming here and then vanishing? We probably would still have visa free travel so people could come anyway.

See thats another part of the brexit argument thats problematic, the conflating legal immigrants who play by the rules and pay their taxes etc and the ones who are here and illegally operating below the surface, those people would still be here EU or no EU.

It's getting quite tiresome that those in favour of Brexit are painted as evil racists or suchlike ... as has been pointed out many times in these threads, most people would be very happy to back controlled immigration, for those with needed skills, such as exists in Canada, Aus/NZ. I have been through that process myself when wishing to move to one of the above countries - had to give proof of bank accounts, have a medical, provide work history/CV and be included in the list of qualifying jobs/or have job offer, give proof that you can financially support yourself until settled. No claiming of benefits, no council house, just a visa and limited permission to move there. Yes it was a pain to do all that but that's how it should be, shouldn't it? Getting the best people for the jobs, no matter which country they come from. The refugee situation is an entirely separate matter, before I get trashed for this post.

No dad probably not but it would be good if it was stopped by the government or the landlords were heavily fined.

Noone is denying immigration can be of huge benefit to the host country. But, uncontrolled immigration like we are seeing now is problematic. Most EU immigrants come here to work granted. However, those on the minimum wage receive more in in-work benefits than they pay in tax. There is a direct correlation between an increase in unskilled labour and unskilled wages dropping. Low paid workers then have their wages topped up by the tax payer. Wage suppression suits the big corporations but not the middle classes who are being further squeezed. Furthermore, money is often sent straight out of the UK to the migrant worker's home and that country benefits from the imported money. Exporting money abroad is bad for our economy.

As I said before, there are many reasons for Brexit. Immigration is but one of them.

Thanks, Parmalilac that's how it should be. Another friend's 30 yr old son landed a job in Vancouver and went there 3 weeks ago. He had to be scrutined in the way described, as well as a very comprehensive security check by the Canadians.

We should not be importing poverty or criminal behaviour, but we have been for years.