To be annoyed that immigration is the main issue for most people in EU debate?

[susanketty]

Whether you are 'in' or 'out', I'm getting tired of immigration being the main issue for people - sure, it will have an impact, but brexit is not going to solve any problems with immigration that people perceive, and immigration fears does not seem to be to me a good enough reason to vote out. And voting in is not going to necessarily lead to a rush of immigrants.

We are not in the Schengen area, we have border control, and EU immigrants make a net contribution to our economy. Brexiteers often say they would like a Norway-esque agreement, which seems to me like all the problems (i.e., free movement of people) with none of the advantages other than being in the trade area (which we are already).

I just think there is more to the debate than immigration and it seems to me like it's been pushed to the front of the agenda to push more people to vote out due to fear.

@Bolograph

I'm very much an innie, and I'd welcome more immigration along with the infrastructure to sustain it, but I think yabu.

It is a high issue for some people simply because it's the biggest thing that affects their daily experiences. When people struggle to get low paid jobs because the market is saturated and their children are in a minority at school because they speak English as a first language, then it's understandable that immigration is important to people.

My point is that some people seem to have an idea that exiting from the EU is going to 'solve' immigration and any associated problems they see arising from immigration. To me, it seems like an incredibly OTT move to exit from the EU over immigration fears -- for starters, who knows what immigration is going to look like following an out vote? Many say that, in order to be part of the EU single market trade, we would need to accept free movement of people (as some other countries have done), but we would have no say in the running of the EU.

I am not trying to paint anyone as racist or say that this is not an important issue, it just seems to have been blown out of proportion and seems to be the main factor in the EU debate. My fear is that people will be 'pushed' by the media to think that an out vote will solve immigration (and therefore, somehow, stop all terrorism in the UK, as I saw in the Sun a few weeks back) and will vote accordingly without considering the other important factors (economy, trade etc).

susan look at it this way.

Staying in will never ever give us a chance to control it will it? IN fact the EU is expanding its EMPIRE and will soon take in very poor countries like Albania and Turkey.

Leaving the EU we can sort out our immigration issues as we like and if the Government - does something we dont like - we can campaign and kick up a fuss, and try and change it.

We cant kick up a fuss and try and change things - re EU can we! I dont think the anonymous powers that be, lurking in Brussels give a shit whether we had a demo in London?

The economy and trade will settle even in the event of Brexit, I'm not bothered about that. What I think people need to consider is that we have lost done autonomy to the EU- even if that results in laws you find good, that is not democratic. The EU is not a club I like, most members are privileged nations and I think it can be rather self- serving and protectionist. Obviously the loss of free movement is a serious consideration- what would happen to British expats? We actually claim more benefits in Europe than Europeans claim here- especially in Germany- what happens to those claimants?

I'll likely be voting Remain, but with no real enthusiasm. The campaign has no heart, and I consider its obsessive focus on trade and economic wellbeing to be largely irrelevant and uninspired.

My point is that some people seem to have an idea that exiting from the EU is going to 'solve' immigration and any associated problems they see arising from immigration.

but pre -EU, we hardly had no issues with immigration. It's not like the National Front suddenly appeared in 1975 ....

Op the point is - if we leave the EU it will be our choice, now it isn't. That simple. Bremainers want to say we'd have to have free movement post Brexit because it suits their argument. The fact is we don't know what would happen - each side's view of what would happen if the other side won is hardly unbiased. It isn't the only issue, and plainly Brexit won't stop terrorism, but it is one issue amongst many.

Exactly lurking H, my parents never spoke of it, it was not an issue at all, in my life time until for me, 2006/7 and on wards.

Brexit will certainly help though. People on EU passports are waived through with cursory glances.

If we get our borders back, stop this nonsense it will make it harder for terrorists to get through.

Susan, This Brexiter does not want a Norway-esque type of arrangement. The UK can trade with any country in the world, but of course the EU will penalise us.

Gove said today that if the 5 new counries are allowed to join EU we can expect, at minimum, arrival of people equal to the size of 4 BIRMINGHAMS. That just singletons, dont forget. Then there's a spouse, sibs, parents. Quadruple it.

Why do you think EU are so desperate for the UK to remain? Because they need our ££ input for the ailing 5 countries about to join.

Take a look at this when you have a mo.

www.brexitthemovie.com/

YANBU OP.

I've just said it on another thread but the EU is not the enemy. ISIL is the enemy and Europe should be working together, not starting to tear itself apart.

And if we vote to leave (which I fear is going to happen) the UK will split up too. How is any of this going to help?

I am sick of the dictatorship that is the EU

This is the problem. People don't understand what the EU is or how it works. We DO have a say and we can elect MEPs. It is not a dictatorship.

We simply wouldn't be having a referendum if freedom of movement had not been part of an EU package

Yes we would because some Tory MPs hate the fact that we get social rights from the EU. They hate the plebs having employment rights, working time rights etc. THAT's the reason they want us to leave.

People far smarter than me have pointed out the following.

The EU is all for expansionism because the world is dividing into blocs. Once you know this it begins to make sense as to why EU wants ailing countries under its belt such as Turkey, Albania, Armenia etc, which is simply for the territory. It is rumoured that the world may look like a series of blocs such as this in the next 50-100 years.

    - Canada, North America, Mexico and South America

    - Europa

    - China-HK-Taiwan 

    - Putin wants to re-establish USSR

    - Korea, Aus and NZ get taken over by China

    They will pick off all surrounding countries.  Not clear how S.E. Asia, N. Korea or Japan would split.

There will be big fight over Africa as China will want it. China is currently investing heavily in Africa.

I dont want a Norway agreement either. I dont know why its always trotted out. I believe Norway was happy to accept free movement at the time ( I think its regretting it now) and was able to get a deal that suited them.

Immigration is a big issue for the UK, so I cant see why we would accept it in any deal.

The idea we'd get a much better deal than other countries who aren't in the EU is really bizarre though. Why would that be the case? I haven't seen a single convincing reason why that would be.

It strikes me as really misleading and unfair to have a leave campaign that is based not on what is most likely (based on other countries in a similar position) but on 'oh but we could...

I thought it was very telling that when the official referendum flyer came around this week with 1 page each from Leave and from Remain that the remain page referenced all of the sources for their figures while the Leave said had no sources and only talked about what we could do in a misleading manner (eg, we could spend all the money we send to the EU on the NHS - er no, because lots of that money comes back to us to be slent in certain areas and a huge amount of that funding would have to continue)

I have gone off topic.

They hate the plebs having employment rights, working time rights etc. THAT's the reason they want us to leave

Ah so this is why socialist Corbyn wants to leave is it? He too hates workers rights .

When people make comments like this - I do wonder how old they are. You do realise - laws, rights and progression in society was happening long before we joined the EU?

One could go as far back as the magna carter?

The idea we'd get a much better deal than other countries who aren't in the EU is really bizarre though

Norway got a deal that suited them. UK wouldn't get a better deal at all. It would get a different deal that suits us.

Of course, no one knows what is going to happen post-referendum, no matter the result. Will we have a Norway like agreement, with the downsides of EU membership but none of the say? Who knows. We will most likely have to accept concessions to be able to access the EU free trade area. Yes, we do not have a huge say in the running of the EU, but then we have to accept we are one country of many in a large union, and who is to say that EU laws are not ones which we would have on our own, or are necessarily bad ones just because they are EU directives?

EU immigrants are young (countering our own aging population), make a net contribution to the economy etc. There are some downsides, of course, in terms of housing supply and health care provision, but these should be issues that are pushed for internally (building more houses etc), rather than blaming immigration. I do feel sometimes like these problems are 'deferred' onto immigrants / benefits claimants / other 'undesirables' when they are actually caused by poor government decisions.

I think we have a good deal currently with the EU, we have kept a lot of autonomy , we have kept our own currency, we are not in the Schengen zone -- in many ways, we are 'half-in, half-out' already.

pre -EU, we hardly had no issues with immigration

well we did in some Northern towns and eg Leicester. Different sort of immigration. People didn't (and don't) like it. Racist or not, people didn't like it. The difference is it didn't affect nice middle class areas. Now the growth in foreigners living in the UK does.

If we get our borders back, stop this nonsense it will make it harder for terrorists to get through

and will stop us going away too. Holidays will become more difficult, working and studying overseas much more so. I worked in Finland as a student and had to get a visa because they weren't in the EU then. It was a hassle and a half. Don't vote to reintroduce all that hassle.

Cameron knew full well EU immigration was an issue - hence the phrase about an "emergency brake" where infrastructure and services were under pressure. Unfortunately for him, the other EU ministers told him where to stick that, so he had to pretend it meant something else.

Where I live immigration is a huge issue, a and e full, schools full, rent sky high, house prices ridiculous, green belt threatened with building. It's not sustainable to keep cramming people in.
On the whole I have no issue with migration but it needs to be fair and managed. The EU is stopping us doing that. It is keeping earnings down in my area as there are plenty of people to do minimum wage jobs so employers have a choice to treat you like crap.

It may not be a big issue for you but it is for some. I appreciate there are other issues but everyone will feel what's personal to them, what they see around them.

UK wouldn't get a better deal at all. It would get a different deal that suits us

You are very optimistic. What makes you so sure? Why do you think the EU will bow to the demands of the UK (or England, as Scotland will be off - not sure what Wales and NI will do if the UK votes to leave).

but these should be issues that are pushed for internally (building more houses etc), rather than blaming immigration

There is major house building where I am , and huge protests about building on various types of land! Greenbelt, brown whatever you name it! Every week there are people with placards protesting!

So op, we push internally for more green belt, childrens playing fields to be eaten up, then what?

Where would you like it to end? Do you want any green space here?

Corbyn is In.

The labour party and many, many, many trade unions are In.

Whether they might at a different time have chosen to be out is irrelevant, at this referendum they have chosen In.

Bremainers tend to say this -
We will most likely have to accept concessions to be able to access the EU free trade area.

But why? Why would the Germans make it harder for us to buy their VWs, BMWs etc? We buy much more stuff from them than they buy from us - who is going to buy all those right hand drive BMWs?

As for a free trade area - try asking any SME that's tried to do business in France about that.

Holidays will become more difficult

I remember traveling to Europe with perfect ease before the free movement of people!

Big deal, have a proper pass port check! Small price to pay for a safer country, and a country with more space!

I have no doubt if eu were to offer us a good deal we would have heard about it.
Remain should be filled with certainties about what deal they will give us to stay. But it's not it's all up in the air, we've no idea what Cameron got in the extra long meeting. Which actually means fuck all as the other members can vote it out.

It's bull shit no one knows either way.