To be annoyed that immigration is the main issue for most people in EU debate?

[susanketty]

Whether you are 'in' or 'out', I'm getting tired of immigration being the main issue for people - sure, it will have an impact, but brexit is not going to solve any problems with immigration that people perceive, and immigration fears does not seem to be to me a good enough reason to vote out. And voting in is not going to necessarily lead to a rush of immigrants.

We are not in the Schengen area, we have border control, and EU immigrants make a net contribution to our economy. Brexiteers often say they would like a Norway-esque agreement, which seems to me like all the problems (i.e., free movement of people) with none of the advantages other than being in the trade area (which we are already).

I just think there is more to the debate than immigration and it seems to me like it's been pushed to the front of the agenda to push more people to vote out due to fear.

Thats fine, the rest of your post is all anecdotal though.

Shakeeba in your opinion, would our government - bearing in mind the government we have - truly be able to (and want to) renegotiate the immigration issue if we Brexit? I'm a leave, but if I'm honest it is mainly due to immigration and border control. If things remain the same with unlimited immigration from the EU, that's mainly my point of voting out evaporated.
There seems little point in a Norway situation ftom that point of view.

When British nationals move out of areas with high immigration they disperse throughout the country

Disperse, but they are still there! That is why the minimum waiting time for routine outpatient appts is now 3 months.

Half of the healthy EU migrants will use our maternity services one or twice. The children they have will at stage attend a hospital, and definitely a GP. That is why the waiting time for a GP appointment is now 3 weeks. It used to be 1 week.

an interesting take on immigration

If we are only interested in tax and benefits, the perfect person for the economy would arrive the day after they finish education, work for 40 years, not have children and then leave the day after they retire.

It is no surprise, then, that the relatively young, already educated migrants from EU accession countries are closer to that model than people who have arrived in Britain longer ago, or indeed the population in general.

The big question that this research does not address is what happens to those migrants in the future; in particular, will they stay in the country after they retire?

And also, what effect if any have they had on the amount of in-work benefits and out-of-work benefits paid to the rest of the population?

Your data is also inaccurate.

fullfact.org/europe/over-here-and-under-arrest-are-romanians-responsible-90-atm-crime/

Shakeba, you think 4% of the population have caused waiting time to trebele?

Everyone has a right to an opinion, it doesn't make them equally valid.

£11,000,000 a day sent from the UK to home countries by immigrants. Those figures are from the ONS. True to say they are from 2009. I'm guessing it's higher than that now.

Thats entire remittances not just EU. Far less than that will be EU immigration.

Immigration will not change post a leave vote

That's a straight out lie. You cannot state that with any certainty.

Also according to the World Bank the UK recieves around £58 million a week in remittances or 3.04 billion a year.

Don't think you should be complaining.

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/why-jeremy-corbyn-is-the-out-campaigns-secret-weapon/

The Labour leadership and most of the unions seem unaware that this is a fight over the future of Britain. Their strange indifference may help the opponents of the EU prevail. The ‘out’ campaign offers a simple explanation for the left’s lethargy: in their hearts Corbyn, Unite and the rest do not want us to stay in the EU. As one Vote Leave spokesman said, ‘It’s extremely sad to see that Jeremy, who is for all his faults a conviction politician and a lifelong opponent of the EU, has been gagged by the clapped-out Blairites rejected in the Labour leadership contest.’

shakeeba that is why the waiting time for a GP appointment is now 3 weeks. It used to be 1 week.

I live in a rural area where there is less than 1% non UK-born residents - we still have at least 3 week wait to get a gp appointment. When you do get an appointment the majority of people in the waiting room are frail elderly. Neither of which can be blamed in EU membership.

They are working, earning money. But the vast majority of that is sent home out of this country. They aren't spending it here, they aren't putting back into the economy.

This is a big issue for me. I'm know personally of people from Eastern Europe like this. They largely work for cash (car washes also feature) and this is sent straight back to their home country to fund the building of some lavish properties. When one proudly showed me pictures of his country house and seaside villa back in his homeland, all paid for in cash and mortgage free, I had to bite my tongue.

There are some real winners in this situation but it certainly isn't those that were born here, work hard and pay their taxes. It is not difficult to see why people have had enough.

FatDad and that attitude you have right there, that dismissive, arrogant, mansplaining is exactly the reason why immigration cannot be discussed.

Like I said before, has immigration had an impact on your life in real terms. Your environment, community your living conditions?

Well, as less than half of net migration is from the EU, and EU immigration won't stop completely, I don't think that leaving the EU will have the massive effect on immgration that the out vote think it will.

The best estimates put it at a fall of about 100,000 per year.

ThroughThick I was thinking about that today.

Our current govt would scupper any renegotiation - they would tell us they tried, when they had not.

I dont know who is possible to assemble, because what we need immediately after Brexit is a combination of the best business negotiators out there (supporters of Brexit, of course) but also a QC on international law, and a very senior and older Civil Servant who knows how to parle in such matters.

It's essentially a trade off, and our side needs to be clear on how much it is willing to budge (know your parameters). Firstly, investigate

1. what we do/can import from other countries
2. what we currently import from EU countries.
3. how many of these EU imports can be obtained from other countries?
4. what does EU import from us, and what products would they be likely to obtain from elsewhere?

Both sides need to know how far they are willing to go.
For us, the most pressing issue is unlimited free movement of EU people.

For example, one of the biggest exports to us are cars.
Will Germany/France/Spain be able to swallow not exporting their cars to UK? Where else could they make up such a loss?

What we could offer them is continue exporting to us, no tariffs, no quotas, but for that we do not agree to "the people" clause.
OR a combination, such as we agree to limited people whenever possible/defined by us, but we have to impose a tariff on your goods. They will of course threaten to impose a tariff on our exports.

It's all about getting down to the minutiae and keeping your nerve. Farage could probably do it but as to who could support him - I do not know. I think the best negotiators are actually in the BMA and in the trades unions - someone like the late Bob Crow would have been excellent. (I dont know whether he was pro or anti EU - but he was a fighter).

Faraway, unless you have a link to back that up you should probably retract that post. Anecdotes not welcome here . But yes, same as the man who owns the car wash here, he drives a new merc, big house in Poland, very well off. But no, nothing to see here, we're imagining it unless you have data to back it up.

FarAway I know personally of people from Eastern Europe like this. They largely work for cash (car washes also feature) and this is sent straight back to their home country to fund the building of some lavish properties.

The Poles especially are very well sorted. They even have their own money transfer banks in London. Before those were set up it was expensive sending money back home via MoneyGram and Wells Fargo.

"dismissive, arrogant, mansplaining is exactly the reason why immigration cannot be discussed"

I'm totally willing to discuss immigration, just not willing to discuss it when people are using incorrect information plucked from the Daily Express to do it. Your 92% of ATM crime figure comes from one qoute from one police officer in 2012 with no other data to back it up.

I'll ask you the same question you asked me. How has immigration effected your life?

Also if the migrants are paid cash then it is not going to the exchequer. The house building happens in other non EU countries too but still not right.

I would like the non EU immigration to cease too. The UK never gets the chance to clear its housing lists etc because of non stop new arrivals.

Perhaps we could limit how much cash can leave the UK, does this happen in other economies e.g. South Africa

"Will Germany/France/Spain be able to swallow not exporting their cars to UK? Where else could they make up such a loss?"

Where will we buy cars from then? Cause anything imported from the USA or Japan has a WTO tariff of 10% on it.

"What we could offer them is continue exporting to us, no tariffs, no quotas, but for that we do not agree to "the people" clause.
OR a combination, such as we agree to limited people whenever possible/defined by us, but we have to impose a tariff on your goods. They will of course threaten to impose a tariff on our exports."

No, what will happen is that if we want full access to the EU market we will have to accept a Norway style deal, there is not a chance in hell that the EU will give the UK a deal that is more beneficial than what its members have.

Most likely it will be based on WTO standards, sadly the increased costs will be passed on to the consumer, inflation will be rampant. There is a good possibility it will have an effect on our exports too so there may be redundancies in exporting firms.

throckenholt
I live in Greater London and my GP's waiting room is around 85 percent EU and non-EU people.

FatDad What are the UK's three biggest exports to the EU?

FatDad are you David Cameron? Do you have a cushty job lined up in Brussles after you are thrown out of Government?

Cause anything imported from the USA or Japan has a WTO tariff of 10% on it.

No it doesn't. GATT sets ceilings on tariffs, not floors, and tariffs are charged by the importing country, not some mysterious third party. The UK government could decide tomorrow morning to charge no tariffs on car imports from Japan (say) and then Japanese cars would be cheaper on the retail market.