To be annoyed that immigration is the main issue for most people in EU debate?

[susanketty]

Whether you are 'in' or 'out', I'm getting tired of immigration being the main issue for people - sure, it will have an impact, but brexit is not going to solve any problems with immigration that people perceive, and immigration fears does not seem to be to me a good enough reason to vote out. And voting in is not going to necessarily lead to a rush of immigrants.

We are not in the Schengen area, we have border control, and EU immigrants make a net contribution to our economy. Brexiteers often say they would like a Norway-esque agreement, which seems to me like all the problems (i.e., free movement of people) with none of the advantages other than being in the trade area (which we are already).

I just think there is more to the debate than immigration and it seems to me like it's been pushed to the front of the agenda to push more people to vote out due to fear.

Yes, how dare our elderly people who probably went through hardships during the war want to use the services they have been paying for for umpteenth years.

BornFree I have read River's posts and I suggest she means CE & EE are not big users of bed for illness, though I agree with you that they do attend A&E due to fighting injuries and being delirious with drink.

I think she is also at pains to point out that when she refers to "EU" people she means those from European countries who are now in EU.

Med your describing a vicious circle though, free immigration = more NHS users, sure great employ more staff, but with the more people that come, the more staff will be needed and so on?

Its an odd way to think.

If by the way the Labour government had - actually had a plan - worked out the numbers of people who would potentially come, got a crack head counting team on it all, planned for new schools, hospitals, staff and all the rest, we wouldn't be in this mess of having this conversation.

Rather like Merkels - everyone come to Germany - " we will cope", when local officials are wiring desperate letters to her, pleading for help, the population has had enough and the Far right is on the move.

The population is not coping and its angry. You simply cannot foist huge numbers of people onto any population anywhere in a very short amount of time. Its irresponsible.

This is what is so scary about the EU, the governments are not acting in the best interest of their citizens, we are all one homogeneous mass.

By the way op, did you read the De Speigal gun article, what did you think about that?

BornFree I have read River's posts and I suggest she means CE & EE are not big users of bed for illness,

Ah, thank you .

bornefree - some are acting in best interests of their citizens - if you are from eastern europe you must be delighted, as would turkey when it joins. its unfortunate that they aren't acting in our best interests though. at least with countries like france and spain we had some benefits - we bought second homes/exported retirees and they came here to work

Different people have very different experience of immigrantion. At the moment, it's not a huge issue where I live but when I visit London (where I come from) many areas have changed beyond recognition. One of my cousins is a factory worker and EU immigration has had a huge impact for him in terms of promotions and job openings. Others in my family - doctors and accountants - haven't faced the same difficulty, it is the unskilled and manual worked that have been hit the hardest. There is a BBC documentary about the impact immigration has had in Newham on Tuesday 10.45 pm which I think will be worth watching.

Brexit the movie didn't mention immigration, there are plenty of other reasons to vote out. My main issue is sovereignty so I will be voting to leave.

Because it is the NHS and it is there to provide health care.

You are wrong, Susan. NHS is not the IHS. That is why we have to pay NI.

The NHS is in crisis debt simply because of numbers. There's no clever other reason ..... it is simply the amount of people who have come to UK who use the NHS, and as you know many are not working, not contributing, but still using NHS.

BornFree I have not read the article yet, but I will. Although I am am not pro-guns, I do sometimes feel that the idea that banning guns will stop attacks is slightly myopic. If guns are banned, there will be other ways to carry out attacks, and ways to get around the ban. This is not a good thing by any means, but it is always easy in hindsight to say 'this is what they should have done / should not have done.'

Does that mean Shakeeba is a sterling example of the sort of immigrant (upholding British values of tolerance) that the UK wants to attract & keep?

What a nasty man you are. When my parents came to this country they lived in one room. When I was born, we lived in one room, sharing a kitchen. But my parents slowly improved themselves and did well. Nowadays we watch programmes where non-European immigrants turn their noses up at spacious 3 bedroom flats because it doesn't have a parking space FFS.

This wasn't about banning guns, the EU were warned that the type of guns - used in the attack could be switched back into weapons of mass killing.

The EU sat on the info for about six years.

Its good to read up on all these issues, to make rounded informed decisions.

The UCL and LSE studies have shown that EU immigrants make a net contribution to the economy as a whole. Mainly due to the healthy immigrant effect, because of this its actually been proven in two studies by Oxford University that immigration actually causes NHS waiting times to go down! The UCL study also showed that if you removed all EU immigrants the effect on the NHS would be negative as the falls in funding (due to lower tax take) wouldn't be offset by the falls in demand, which demonstrates that really EU immigration isn't a major cost but a contributor to the NHS, even more so when you consider the number of EU migrants working within it.

The LSE found that immigration doesn't impact unemployment and in economics in general that would be considered the lump of labour fallacy. It also found, and corresponds with other research, that it doesn't lead to lower wages. In fact if this was the case why did wages go up when there was high levels of immigration from the EU8 countries in 2004-2008?

EU immigrants are under reperesented on the unemployment statistcs and only 14 % of households with an EU migrant in them are in reciept of tax credits ( so lower the 250,000 households). Immigrants are also significantly less likely to be in social housing than British nationals, and the house prices are not soaring because of 3 million people ( 4% of the population) house prices have risen because we chronically under build and have done for nearly 30 years.

85% of children get their first choice of school, and the shortage of places is not caused by immigration but by the cutting of places when they weren't needed, rather than over staffing schools, in the years 2001-2010. The Government could be doing more about school places but are choosing to fund the free school programmes

So immigration, not causing massive benefits bill, has a positive effect on the NHS, pays more in than it takes out, doesn't cause unemployment and doesn't cause lower wages. All proveable by numerous studies.

Where's your argument now?

Interesting comment on Corbyn:

"His head over heart decision angered some hard-left allies. They have launched a Lexit (Left Exit) campaign, which argues that Brexit could bring down Cameron and the Tory government – even though most Labour MPs are not exactly clamouring for a snap general election. Some left wingers believe Brexit would be good for the EU as it would break up the neo-liberal club and put the single currency out of its misery. A separate Labour Leave group includes eight MPs such as Frank Field, who warns that by backing Remain, Labour is driving working class voters into Ukip’s arms"

FatDad "immigration actually causes NHS waiting times to go down"

How? Explain this mystical mechanism you speak of. It is impossible because there is a finite number of appt slots, 5 days in the week, more people using NHS.

I have a 24 hr BP machine fitted in July, but dont get to see the consultant until October. Three months is now the minimum time between hospital appointments of any kind.

Because of the healthy migrant effect, most immigrants from the EU are young and healthy and don't use the NHS much.

When British nationals move out of areas with high immigration they disperse throughout the country, not concentrating in one area so it has a lower effect on the NHS.

The NHS problems are due to underfunding, and the slashes to social care by local councils at the same time as having an ageing population, not immigration.

I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of any of this. I see a lot of people talking about the benefits of immigration in the economic sense, the diversity etc. I wonder how many of you have experienced the real life consequences of immigration? These are just some of the issues we have in our community at the moment:

Families living in HMOs. 4/5 families to one house. Anger amongst local families whose children can't get a place at the local school. Schools they've supported, worked at, their older children have attended etc. But the HMOs are closer and vastly over occupied, suddenly you have a higher concentration of children living closer to the school and those children get the catchment places and local kids are shipped a few miles down the road. Can you understand why people are angry about that?

Back to HMOs of young polish/Romanian men. They are working, earning money. But the vast majority of that is sent home out of this country. They aren't spending it here, they aren't putting back into the economy.

You talk about taxes and net contribution. The car washes around here (vastly owned by Polish people) are completely cash in hand. Their staff (Young unqualified men and women) live in caravans behind the car wash. The owner of the biggest car wash lives in Poland. All his profits go there. This is fact, DP knows him socially. They are more than open about sending the money home without it being taxed. Their staff aren't paid minimum wage but are happy because even a fiver an hr is better than you'd get in Poland.

The vast majority of ATM crime is committed by young Romanian men. I can't find the figures but last I saw it was over 90%. Have any of you experienced the nightmare of having your card cloned? Been mugged near an ATM?

Certainly in the last five years the social makeup of our town has changed. We have a lot of daytime street drinking, begging, homelessness of young E European men and women.

This is the tip of what I can remember right now.

I have no problem at all with skilled workers who wish to integrate coming here.

Aren't you worried about Turkey joining?

Certainly in the last five years the social makeup of our town has changed. We have a lot of daytime street drinking, begging, homelessness of young E European men and women.

I fully agree with you, Jane. You see, the UK is supposed to keep schtum and not complain about the changing face of the country. It is perfectly normal to dislike the forced change in the social makeup of any community, but the bullies out there say we cannot voice this.

Actually, it would be abnormal not to be very worried about one's environment with such profound changes going on.

Jane I refer you to my above post, proveable facts, not anecdote.

Janefromuptheshops I can appreciate why all of that upsets you. However, a lot of it is down to our government for allowing it. The overcrowding, the exploitation of workers by paying pitiful wages, and housing them in inadequate housing, and allowing the employer not to pay taxes is not inherent in immigrant labour - it is being allowed.

And those who use service (in this case car washes) knowing or at least suspecting all that is the case, are complicit because they can't be bothered to wash their own cars.

Being a member of the EU is not the cause of it, neither is it stopping us managing it better.

Immigration is an issue that many feel strongly about, it is not always to do with finance but to do with culture. If there is a large influx of migrants then this affects communities especially as migrants from specific countries tend to congregate in certain areas. Where there is true integration there is not an issue but that is not the case in many areas

Because of the healthy migrant effect, most immigrants from the EU are young and healthy and don't use the NHS much.
what about the costs for children, pregnancy and birth provision, some immigrants are not healthy or young (how many), every additional person young or old means the load is getting bigger on infrastructure, schools, the NHS
I would also question this theory trotted out so often that EU migrants are putting in more than they are taking out - how was this study done, did it include the benefits such as child benefit, child tax credits for the whole family or just the head of the family.
I find the constant iteration that those favouring 'out' are driven by bigoted views - there are other factors at play as well as 'unlimited' immigration.

Motheroffourdragons.
If we Brexit we can renegotiate limited EU movement. That's the point. In any business negotiation you look at the best deal that another party has and you aim to IMPROVE on it. Norway made an error, Switzerland too. But Switzerland's referendum two years ago called for renegotiation to "limited".

If we Brexit, we do not sign up to what those two countries have - we aim for better. Why are so many of you so lame in your thinking? You've given up before we have even tried.

I think local families should get priority in schooling over new arrivals. I want to live in a country that puts its citizens first.

Facts not anecdotes. It's easy to be so dismissive no?

It's 92% of ATM fraud. They are the police figures. Would you like a link?