To be annoyed that immigration is the main issue for most people in EU debate?

[susanketty]

Whether you are 'in' or 'out', I'm getting tired of immigration being the main issue for people - sure, it will have an impact, but brexit is not going to solve any problems with immigration that people perceive, and immigration fears does not seem to be to me a good enough reason to vote out. And voting in is not going to necessarily lead to a rush of immigrants.

We are not in the Schengen area, we have border control, and EU immigrants make a net contribution to our economy. Brexiteers often say they would like a Norway-esque agreement, which seems to me like all the problems (i.e., free movement of people) with none of the advantages other than being in the trade area (which we are already).

I just think there is more to the debate than immigration and it seems to me like it's been pushed to the front of the agenda to push more people to vote out due to fear.

There are also "winners" in the current economic system who think that it is not leading us all in a good direction socially to have such polarised pay.

I for one object to the very generous "allowances" that EU officials receive. They get allowances for: Relocation, Household, Family, Entertainment, Private education of their children, Family Healthcare. This is on top of salary, and the allowances do not require verification in the way of the occasional receipt.

I am sure that if each official restrains himself to just one yacht, he and family can live splendidly off the allowances. Why so generous, when all of them live in Europe? I heard that one of our MEPs takes a cheap flight to Brussels, but still gets he fixed Travel allowance - whether ticket cost £85 or £300.

They get allowances for: Relocation, Household, Family, Entertainment, Private education of their children, Family Healthcare.

openeuropeblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/should-we-feel-sorry-for-underpaid-eu.html

There are also "winners" in the current economic system who think that it is not leading us all in a good direction socially to have such polarised pay.

That would be me, amongst others.

total anecdote but I travelled to Stansted from Dublin last week and wasn't asked for my passport when I got there which I thought was odd.

I regularly fly between Dublin and EMA - never asked for passport/ID. Never ever seen any evidence of any Customs people either. If flying in from other international destinations, there is is a massive slow moving queue for passport control though (for everyone, EU or not).

I meant at the EMA end, or course. Queue at passport control in Dublin is always short though, and people polite and cheerful, unlike EMA.

If people are literally witnessing the issues of mass migration every day, who can blame them for this being the main focus of their decision on whether or not to vote in or out. I am fortunate enough that it has not had a detrimental impact on me and my family but I am not ignorant enough to not understand people's concerns. Struggling to get your child into a school, seeing your wage being massively undercut etc. OK for those with enough money to pay for private schooling and educated to a level that your salary is unaffected etc.

For the bloody well last time I am going to ask this question : where are our open borders?
We have passport control at all entry and exit points in the UK.
No we don't - exit controls were abolished many years ago and have never been reinstated.

The airline will ask for your passport at the airport, but UK Border Force (or whatever they have been rebranded as this week) won't look at it - so although we check on entry, we never check on exit.

Amongst other things, this means we have no way of checking if EU (or any other) citizens are still here legally - since we have no record of when (or if) they left.

So not only are we legally obliged to take all sorts of people from the EU who it's probably not in our national interest to have here (as well as many form whom it is), we have no way of knowing who stayed and who did not.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/21/poor-eu-border-controls-put-britain-in-danger/

Frontex warns that the number of people trying to get into Britain fraudulently surged by 70 per cent last year. So having exposed the UK to this risk, the EU then ties our hands in dealing with it. We’re forced to rely on potentially illegitimate documents issued by another EU state.

In an EU of 28, that system is only as strong as its weakest link. As former head of Interpol Ronald Noble points out, eight EU members are on Interpol’s top 10 list of nations reporting stolen or lost passports. None systematically screens passports at their borders.

EU law dictates the UK can’t insist on issuing its own permits, can’t simply refuse entry because of an alert on an international warning system, and can’t automatically bar from entry those nationals lacking proper travel documents. We have to admit someone bearing an EU passport – even from a country where fraud is widespread

The Border Force glance at your passport and wave you on.” UK intelligence and police are stretched trying to monitor those already in the country, who present a risk. The last thing they need is for that list to keep growing, because of lax border controls.

www.irishtimes.com/news/world/state-moves-over-pakistani-and-bangladeshi-asylum-seekers-1.2423258

I guess this is an example of the effects of lax border controls on other jurisdictions.

It's "Democracy" that should be the main point of discussion.

Once it's gone, we won't get it back without a fight.

There are many issues which probably need looking at in the EU, but the main one for me is "What is the direction of the EU for the Future"? Where will the EU be in 10 years time and what will it look like? Nobody in the remain camp seems to be saying anything about that.

Yes migration is an issue it is for me because I live in an area where we are at the frontline. I only have to walk out of my door to see it's effects. It would be disingeuous to suggest that every migrant from every migrant community is a net contributor and there are no social issues that come with each very different and varied community, I know that to be completely untrue from the evidence of my own experience. I live this at the moment although I hope to move. I am also married to an EU migrant although one that has been here many years.

The EU has changed a lot since we first joined and what people voted on then isn't the EU we now have today. Some of it is positive, some negative, but it all warrants discussing and if necessary changing.

There is a reason why we have reached the point where we are having a referendum, think of it as pause for reflection.

we never check on exit

Not sure if this is strictly true any longer as I was stopped by UK border agents when boarding flights leaving the UK quite recently (they were checking passports and questioning all passengers about their destination and purpose of visit).

Either way, it's easy enough to set up exit controls if you employ enough border guards. Some EU countries have routine checks for passengers leaving the Schengen zone - I fly regularly between France and the UK and all French airports control your passport when you leave. There is nothing stopping the UK government doing this except its unwillingness to raise money via taxation to pay for it, it's certainly nothing to do with the EU.

anecdote but I travelled to Stansted from Dublin last week and wasn't asked for my passport when I got there

Normal. There is a common travel area agreement between the UK and Ireland. I'm guessing that if you think this is a bad thing you're too young to remember the days when there was a heavily armed border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, where military, police and civilians regularly lost their lives.

The Northern Ireland border is going to be one of the trickier border control questions that may need answering.

We don't have any exit checks - do proper research if you don't believe me.

You anecdote sounds like an ONS survey - I did one recently on the way back from Dublin.

I agree our lack of exit controls isn't due to the EU and I never said it was - I was responding to the false (and mock exasperated) claim that we check everyone in and everyone out - that is just plain not true.

It's "Democracy" that should be the main point of discussion

Of course, the Key Main point of it all.

If we have democracy and choice we could have had the power to limit EU migration, but we have already lost THAT power.

There are no routine checks, but as I said, I passed through checks at the boarding gate on two occasions around christmas (so after the Paris attacks).

Would the passenger survey be done by border officials (these were border guards in uniform)? I always assumed that the passenger survey would be done by civilian employees with questionnaires, not border officials doing passport checks. They were certainly not recording anything, just asking questions.

mistri on one of the links I posted way back which you obviously didn't read there was an interesting comparison between the US immigration process at airports and check points and The UK's.

I want a pro active, US style check point.

Where will the EU be in 10 years time and what will it look like? Nobody in the remain camp seems to be saying anything about that

Excellent point, where will we be in ten years time?

They were certainly not recording anything, just asking questions.
So maybe just additional security in the wake of those attacks. If they weren't recording anything then those are exit controls. The whole point is to record entry and exit so we know who's here and who isn't (over time). We do record entry.

Sorry I meant if not recording anything those are NOT exit controls.

Just to be clear - we don't have any exit controls.

BornFree well, I work f/t so i certainly don't read every post I'm afraid! But as a very frequent flyer I'm familiar with both UK and US border controls.

How effective are US border controls? The answer is - not very. A quick Google suggests that around half a million people overstay their US visas every year. There are probably at least 5 million visa overstayers in the US. Indeed, an entire presidential campaign is being run on the basis of US immigration controls being inadequate!

was there are certainly no routine border controls on exit, my point was that there is nothing to stop them being introduced, because ad hoc controls are already being done. It's largely a matter of budgetary constraint - it wouldn't be complicated (just costly) to implement passport checks on leaving. Many of the countries I travel to regularly have exit checks.

Mistigri - I don't disagree - I was just correcting the factually incorrect assertion made upthread that we fully control our borders at present by checking everyone in and out when we plainly don't. It's a narrow but significant point unrelated to the causes and history of it.