To be annoyed that immigration is the main issue for most people in EU debate?

[susanketty]

Whether you are 'in' or 'out', I'm getting tired of immigration being the main issue for people - sure, it will have an impact, but brexit is not going to solve any problems with immigration that people perceive, and immigration fears does not seem to be to me a good enough reason to vote out. And voting in is not going to necessarily lead to a rush of immigrants.

We are not in the Schengen area, we have border control, and EU immigrants make a net contribution to our economy. Brexiteers often say they would like a Norway-esque agreement, which seems to me like all the problems (i.e., free movement of people) with none of the advantages other than being in the trade area (which we are already).

I just think there is more to the debate than immigration and it seems to me like it's been pushed to the front of the agenda to push more people to vote out due to fear.

For the bloody well last time I am going to ask this question : where are our open borders?
We have passport control at all entry and exit points in the UK.
And where is the banging head on wall emoticon ?

Mother - it is utterly simplistic to think that 'controlling our borders' is happening because we have passport control.

That is the puerile argument that is trotted out time and time again by the REMAIN side who refuse to acknowledge that 'controlling our borders' is also about deciding who comes through those borders to live and work in the UK.

While we are in the EU we have almost no control over our borders at all - we must accept any EU citizen has the right to cross our borders to live permanently in the UK
we must accept that we cannot deny entry through our borders to any EU citizen that wishes to cross them unless the Home Secretary has a compelling case to refuse entry on the grounds of national security
We must accept that we cannot send back across our borders, any EU citizen who has completed a prison sentence in the country and who wishes to remain within our borders at the end of his sentence, instead of being deported to their 'home' country.

It is absurd to say that showing a passport = we control our borders. We do not.
The only people who make that spurious claim are those who try to deceive us and diminish the very real problem that 'open borders' and 'free movement' causes us.

woodhill no, I dare say not - I've never seen a post removed so quickly, probably because not deleting it could have left MN liable to criminal prosecution (it's a criminal offence to publish material that incites racial hatred, which this post certainly did).

A number of people did see it though.

replace Roma with Jew in shakeeba's post, and Mumsnet would spontaneously combust

The Labour Party wouldn't, and the NUS would cheer it to the echo. Tragically.

Yes, for sure, but it becomes your business if these people return home en masse

Yes and!

If they are UK citizens and they wont to come home fine!

We are responsible for our own citizens! We should not be responsible for all the citizens of Europe.

Bolo I see you are studiously avoiding calling out shakeeba's racist post.

Pointy, much as I agree with your sentiments I reported your post for repeating. Hope you don't mind.

Of course they're not all beggars & thieves.

Shame because although we have our differences, parts of this thread have set a good example of how it's possible to have positive exchanges on a contentious subject. I was thinking exactly this. Makes a nice change from patronising sneering and constant citing of statistics. Where is FatDad I wonder

I see you are studiously avoiding calling out shakeeba's racist post.

Huh?

It had been deleted before I saw it, and it should be clear from what I said that I see all racism as equally appalling. The quotes from it seem utterly dreadful, but I haven't seen it.

I wasn't aware this was about competitive condemnation, however. Anti-Roma bigotry (I assume it was) is appalling, what more do you think I need to say?

Cote, if I shouldn't vote according to my everyday life how should I vote? What is best for the country as a whole?

I would ask you if you are living with the effects of immigration in your everyday life?

Bolo fair enough, and I apologise. However, there were a number of people actively debating on this thread at the time. Three of us immediately condemned it (all people who have been arguing the pro-immigration case; two of us immigrants ourselves.) Others were silent. It's really quite difficult not to draw conclusions from that silence.

Others were silent.

I was eating my dinner. Laptops and bolognese are a bad combination.

*"You can tell me over and over that I am wrong about immigration and it's a positive thing overall. But if my experience everyday is the opposite that's how I will vote."

Yes, that is the problem with giving a vote to people who cannot see beyond what is there in their everyday lives.*

and

It's a well-known problem with referendums (and democracy in general, one may argue) that giving equal voice to everyone results in the simplest and most populist issues affecting the outcome.

You do seem to have a problem with democracy, CoteDAzur. Who do you think should be able to vote and who do you think should decide who the lucky chosen few will be?

Shocking statements.
People have a vote whether you like it or not.

Misti, I was eating dinner and have not long come back. Am now off to do the ironing, if I'm not seen in a few hours please send a search party.

Others were silent.

I got sidetracked by watching Countryfile about the living wage in Worcestershire, growing salad crops underground, and vegetable art in Jersey.

Others were silent. It's really quite difficult not to draw conclusions from that silence.

Oh for heaven' sake - what nonsense! I was feeding the cat and bringing the washing in so missed whatever it was that was deleted - although I can probably guess from the remaining posts.

Have we reached the stage where we all have to publicly denounce things we haven't even seen?

When did the EU introduce that regulation?

I also missed the post but I can take a guess at the content. I'm not sure what comment I am requested to make.

I was posting intermittently between bathing my kids. Sorry I'll try to make sure they don't need a bath next time someone posts something they shouldn't on MN. Maybe you could give us some warning so we can down tools and get the popcorn out?

Can you all please promise to to post anything I am expected to express outrage about while I nip to the loo?

Thanks

I went to the pub.

That'll teach me.

Yes where is FatDad I thought he would be back on the thread?

I also missed the Roma Post.

I have never known each poster being asked to recognize a post and what...apologies for it? Condemn it?

Mn are the arbiters. They have deleted it.

How odd

You do seem to have a problem with democracy, CoteDAzur. Who do you think should be able to vote and who do you think should decide who the lucky chosen few will be?

This view of not allowing us plebs the vote has been expressed by a few posters on here, I think fatdad as well ( where is he?).

It does make sense however that some pro EU Remainers will think this way.

If you are pro EU and up on your politics then you will not like democracy because the EU is not democratic.

Didn't see the post, as it was deleted by the time I saw it.

Mother, I am back and forward on the university run, and whilst I go through passport control at Dunkirk, each and every time, and get searched, this is not the case at Dover, especially if one catches the 0800 ferry. I merrily drive past the unmanned French and UK border posts, and hope that the G4S person huddled in the shelter is asleep and won't pull me over.

Springing
"Have we reached the stage where we all have to publicly denounce things we haven't even seen? "
On mumsnet, yes, it would seem that way.

Well, you don't often get threads where someone says that not everybody should have a vote either, but here we go.

I'm leaning towards Remain now, btw, but I resent being told what's a more worthy way of voting.

Scary whats Dunkirk like at the moment please, I am going there soon.

I posted links way back about lax controls in so many ways. If security and controls on our borders interest anyone, then there is loads of stuff about it coming ut all the time.

Trying to imply EU border checks are the same as outside EU is ridiculous.

If you are pro EU and up on your politics then you will not like democracy because the EU is not democratic.

Ha!