To be annoyed that immigration is the main issue for most people in EU debate?

[susanketty]

Whether you are 'in' or 'out', I'm getting tired of immigration being the main issue for people - sure, it will have an impact, but brexit is not going to solve any problems with immigration that people perceive, and immigration fears does not seem to be to me a good enough reason to vote out. And voting in is not going to necessarily lead to a rush of immigrants.

We are not in the Schengen area, we have border control, and EU immigrants make a net contribution to our economy. Brexiteers often say they would like a Norway-esque agreement, which seems to me like all the problems (i.e., free movement of people) with none of the advantages other than being in the trade area (which we are already).

I just think there is more to the debate than immigration and it seems to me like it's been pushed to the front of the agenda to push more people to vote out due to fear.

New to this thread, not reading all 20 pages.

I am voting leave because there are to many people coming here from the EU, they are taking our jobs and lowering wages for the British. We need to reclaim our country, we are full. No more.

@ JC.

Dunkirk is fine well, the ferry port anyway. I am going there next week, en route back to UK.

They have beefed up security around the port, lots of barbed wire and fencing. When I drove back to UK on the day of the Brussels bombings, I was stopped before check in by the flics, and searched. I had to show my passport at the check in, again with the French border control, and again, and searched again, by the UKBA. I was then searched by port security, even though they had stood and watched the UKBA search the car as well.

Going into Dunkirk, there is a police presence as you drive off the ferry, but I've never been stopped.

I use Dunkirk as it is closer than Calais, and I don't have to deal with hold ups caused by migrants on the motorway etc.

Mistigri - did you see Cote d'Azur's post saying that people who didn't agree with immigration shouldn't have a vote?
If you did, I haven't noticed any objection from you to that.

I was eating dinner and clearing up so didn't see post.

Gosh yes where is FatDad who's first and only posts on Mumsnet are pro remain with lots of convenient links and statistics that he just happened to have at hand....

Thank you Scary!

Andante - there was only silence.

Also a poster referenced lazy BRITS. There was a deafening silence.

Re: borders, total anecdote but I travelled to Stansted from Dublin last week and wasn't asked for my passport when I got there which I thought was odd. I know we have a common travel area but we are separate jurisdictions and in practice travellers need ID. Indeed I remember the old days when Irish people got questioned in detail about where we were going, what our business was etc. So I thought it was surprisingly lax.

mother I hate to single out your posts again but I'm baffled - amazed - that you think that having to show a passport restricts the notion of free movement of persons.

If they is what you are basing your "remain" vote in, then you are very much mistaken!

Anyone in the EU can come here to live - and they do! We cannot prevent that in any way - even if they need to flash a passport.
There is a school in Glasgow that apparently has not one native English speaker!!!!! Not one!!!

Thank goodness I never mentioned the war.

JeremyCorbyn welcome to the thread! I wondered where you'd been hiding

I am voting leave because

You see, that proves it's not the real Jeremy Corbyn because the real Jeremy Corbyn never talks about the EU decision in the first person.

He never says 'I think..." He always says "The Labour Party thinks,,,""

You could be forgiven for thinking Jeremy's heart is not in continued EU membership.

Could be John O'Donnell though

Also a poster referenced lazy BRITS. There was a deafening silence.

I objected and was called xenophobic
I have asked where in my post this was so I can learn and that was met with deafening silence.

drummer "Also a poster referenced lazy BRITS. There was a deafening silence."

Are you sure?

I can see you used the word "lazy". Who do you think referred to "lazy Brits" before you did?

Who is John O'Donnell, he is not in my group?

Unfortunately we have to say publicly that the EU is good, in private we need to vote LEAVE.

I can see you used the word "lazy". Who do you think referred to "lazy Brits" before you did?

I believe drummer is referring to a post in which I suggested that immigrants are often harder working and more aspirational than native populations - the words "Brit" and "lazy" were nowhere to be found, except in drummer's own posts.

The common theme of immigration is that recent migrants are typically prepared to do less attractive jobs and work longer hours than locals - it's what makes migration attractive to host countries. Just think of the history of US immigration in which successive waves of migrants have bettered themselves, undertaking often low paid and physically demanding work so that their children (second generation immigrants) can get an education and seek better paid and less arduous jobs.

Hard working
Antonyms: disinterested, idle, indifferent, lazy, quiescent, quiet

Aspirational
Antonyms:
aimlessness, avoidance, carelessness, heedlessness, neglect, negligence, oversight, purposelessness, thoughtlessness

Which do you think would better explain how you feel about the indigenous population?

The common theme of immigration is that recent migrants are typically prepared to do less attractive jobs and work longer hours than locals

And yet on this very thread we've been told (by you? scaryteacher? I forget) that EU bureaucrats deserve higher wages than their local neighbours because they work so much harder. By your logic, that just makes them lazy.

I didn't say Bolograph, that they deserve higher wages, I was very careful not to say that, but that the skills set they possess attracts that sort of money. I didn't say they worked harder either. Dh has a high paid job in Brussels (not at the EU). It needs the 34 years experience he gained in another field, a degree, an MA, a C.Eng etc to get to that level. Your average Belgian/Brit doesn't have that experience or level of qualifications. I couldn't begin to do dh's job, any more than he could teach teenagers.

It's also about levels of responsibility as well...SMT get paid more than a classroom teacher, as they deal with more of the admin crap, the politicking etc.

My point wasn't that immigrants were lazy, but that immigration is having an effect in mainland Europe as well. Where I live it's with the house prices, and locals not being able to afford to send their kids to the International schools as the fees are eye watering - university is cheaper by far, but that is because employers have a school fees package as part of the job offers to parents, and that private schools here are run as businesses as opposed to schools - in other areas like Molenbeek and Anderlecht the problem is of cultural integration, so you have immigrant areas springing up as you do in the UK. I don't think anywhere is immune to this - look at Austria - but the effects in the UK are being debated, whereas they aren't here as much.

Your average Belgian/Brit doesn't have that experience or level of qualifications

Thank God you and your husband are able to selflessly save us from our ignorance.

This thread is a great illustration of what happens when you become so prejudiced against immigrants that any discussion can only be considered through the prism of "us vs them" ("us" being the settled population and "them" being the immigrants). Therefore any statement favorable to immigrants must automatically be a dig at the settled population.

"Oh you say that immigrants are more economically productive - that must mean you think the indigenous population are all lazy bums then".

"Oh, you say that EU bureaucrats earn higher wages than the local population - you clearly don't think the locals deserve those wages".

It's perfectly possible to believe that the majority of people - both immigrant and settled - are decent, hard-working folk while accepting that there might be certain factors that lead to some being more economically productive and/or earning more than others. Well, it's possible to believe that if your thinking is not being limited by a view of the world that it's us vs the immigrants.

Thank God you and your husband are able to selflessly save us from our ignorance.

See, even someone stating what specialised qualifications they have that lead them to have a particular job is somehow a dig at everyone else.

What a ridiculous, narrow-minded view of the world.

See, even someone stating what specialised qualifications they have that lead them to have a particular job is somehow a dig at everyone else.

Enfin je me rappelai le pis-aller d’une grande princesse à qui l’on disait que les paysans n’avaient pas de pain, et qui répondit : Qu’ils mangent de la brioche.