To be annoyed that immigration is the main issue for most people in EU debate?

[susanketty]

Whether you are 'in' or 'out', I'm getting tired of immigration being the main issue for people - sure, it will have an impact, but brexit is not going to solve any problems with immigration that people perceive, and immigration fears does not seem to be to me a good enough reason to vote out. And voting in is not going to necessarily lead to a rush of immigrants.

We are not in the Schengen area, we have border control, and EU immigrants make a net contribution to our economy. Brexiteers often say they would like a Norway-esque agreement, which seems to me like all the problems (i.e., free movement of people) with none of the advantages other than being in the trade area (which we are already).

I just think there is more to the debate than immigration and it seems to me like it's been pushed to the front of the agenda to push more people to vote out due to fear.

Mistri first of all - french germany etc are all much closer to the uk in terms of life style and quality of life - values, value of money etc.

secondly, its not our business if France is able to cope, and accept unsuitable Britons living there. that's their business!

I have no problem with implementing a system that tracks who comes and goes accurately.

That would be a novel idea. We don't have one at present. It is believed we don't currently have one becaseu no Home Secretary wants to be brave enough to introduce a system that will show the true extent of migration/ over-staying and also has no will to enforce over-stayers to leave.

I do have some issues with deporting people who don't work just on the grounds of nationality

While the world is still chinked up into separate countries then there will always be a requirement for a country to decide who can and can't live in that country. If you deny that then you are effectively arguing for a sort of world government or ultimate freedom of movement where the person choses which country they wish to live in - rather than applying to the country they wish to live in for permission to do so.

Id quite like to move to New Zealand but they wouldn't let me do so.

At least that's how most sovereign countries have based their immigration policies on - it's just while we're in the EU that every EU citizen has the right to live anywhere in the EU they chose to. And as I mentioned in an earlier post, we don't enforce the rule that they must return to their home country if they are unemployed for 3 months.

• there must be lost of people like me who have always worked and paid in, who own property here - what sort of blanket law would you propose that take into account how long people have worked and paid in?

Then you are habitually resident in the UK. You have accrued residency rights under Human Rights Law, quite apart from EU law. There are already minimum qualifying terms for claiming benefits.

Should people like me be treated the same as someone who arrived 6 months ago, just because we have been made redundant or fallen ill?

You are both EU citizens living in that part of the EU that is called the UK. You have no additional rights in the eyes of the EU than any other EU citizen.

Why are people like me worth less than native Brits who may never have worked at all? It isn't a simple question

You're not. You are of equal status to any other EU citizen including an unemployed 'native' Brit. I don't really understand what you are complaining about.

I read Pat Glass's comments. It's unusual for a senior politician - a member of the Shadow Cabinet to let the mask slip like that.

I really do not understand how Labour can support the EU. The freedom of movement works against the average work, forcing down wages and adding o housing costs. It benefits the bosses - not the workers. The idea that the EU protects workers rights is also a joke - it does nothing for people on zero hours contracts. The EU is great for big business who can employ hundreds of lobbyists to shape EU law to suit themselves. By voting to REMAIN you are effectively legitimising the hi-jacking of the EU and workers right by Big Business.

It's nice to be part of a club and feel united - but we can fully cooperate with our neighbours without enetering into political union with them.

Migrants are supposed to return to their 'home countries' if they have been unemployed for 3 months - but nobody enforces that because nobody knows how long a migrant has actually been here.

I've watched 3 episodes of "Cant Pay? We'll take it away".
Several posters have said on this thread that immigrants have NO impact on housing. How can you possibly say that? These programmes featured Romanian and Africans not paying rent and ending up with £6,000 in debt - or at least the landlord does because these people cannot pay.

These are all private lets, all defaulted on. The two Romanian women who were supposedly renting were actually letting the rooms to others. Once they finally left, 11 other people followed them out of the door! They had been hiding together in a back room when the Enforcement Agents arrived to convey that it was only 2 persons living there.

Springing
You are absolutely right. There is no political will to do anything in this country. Whatever 'initiative' is set up we know is going to go splat, because it is run in a Mickey Mouse way. If you want overstayers removed, put more enforcement staff on the road and build temp accommodation for a 48 hr repatriation turnaround.

"You can tell me over and over that I am wrong about immigration and it's a positive thing overall. But if my experience everyday is the opposite that's how I will vote."

Yes, that is the problem with giving a vote to people who cannot see beyond what is there in their everyday lives.

BornFree
secondly, its not our business if France is able to cope, and accept unsuitable Britons living there. that's their business!

Yes, for sure, but it becomes your business if these people return home en masse.

The difference in our views isn't that great actually: it's simply that I'm prepared to accept the disadvantages of EU immigration because I believe that the overall benefits are greater. That's a personal point of view, obviously, since I have been benefiting from free movement for the best part of two decades, and my children - who have the privilege of being dual citizens - will continue to do so brexit or no brexit. But it's also a considered professional viewpoint, because I work for a company that has greatly benefited from the single market, both from the free trade aspect and from the free movement aspect - we employ large numbers of highly educated Europeans who are able to move freely between our european plants and offices.

I've been reading an interview in Money Week with the economist Bernard Connolly. He puts some of my concerns into words much more eloquently that I can, concerns about rapid immigration and the impact it has on national identity.

I don’t know how people who are in favour of the European Union can sleep at night. Because what they are doing is creating a set of social tensions… By eliminating a political sense of national identity ... it has the effect of forcing human beings to seek a sense of belonging in something else. Whether it’s an ethnic sense, a racial, a religious, linguistic or whatever. And we’re starting to see that unfortunately happening.

We can see so many examples of this - the riots across the EU, the Austrian election today, the rise in extremism.

It is these tensions which give rise to war.

The full article is here.

moneyweek.com/bernard-connolly-the-eu-is-an-explicitly-anti-democratic-crony-capitalist-state/

"Can people with EU status move freely throughout the EU?"

Well yes. That is the idea of the EU. Anyone can move from one EU country to another. Which is exactly the reason why they are flocking to Germany - which is close to France - which is close to UK. They don't want to move to less well-off EU countries. They want to move to where they will be afforded the best standard of living.

There have been many news reports from Germany over the past few months. The reporters are interviewing the "Refugees". The outcome of the interviews is that Angela Merkel invited them to her country. The "Refugees", however did not get the housing and benefits they thought they were going to get so they stated that they would go to France or UK. Some even said it wasn't worth the hazardous journey and thought they may as well go back to Syria.

So much for inviting "refugees" to a country that ensures them safety. Of course, along with the Syrian Refugees came thousands of immigrants from other countries - who unfortunately did not happen to have papers stating their identities. As a result they are unlikely to be returned because nobody knows where to return them to.

Misti has given out incorrect info regarding benefits. All immigrants who are invited to a EU country - in this case under humanitarian law, will be given food, clothing and shelter. Then will come child benefit and eventually all the benefits that every individual from that specific country is entitled to. In the case of "workers" who have entered a country to work, whilst his/her family remains in their country of birth, is entitled to child benefit to be sent to their family.

Mother It was explained upthread, anyone from the EU can move here and then has free access to all our public services. That's what open borders means in this context. Nothing to do with passport control.

Mother the borders between EU countries are all open. Anyone from one EU country is free to enter another EU country. I cant see why you are having a problem understanding that.

Mother. The whole ethos of the EU is that anyone who has EU status can move freely between EU countries

mother anyione from an EU country can come to the UK. What rule book are you reading?

Very difficult to have a reasonable debate when some people mistake racism for rational discussion. This confirms my impression that it's becoming increasingly acceptable in the UK to be racist in public as long as you are racist about the right minorities (replace Roma with Jew in shakeeba's post, and Mumsnet would spontaneously combust).

I'm out of here. Shame because although we have our differences, parts of this thread have set a good example of how it's possible to have positive exchanges on a contentious subject.

PS pointy and mother I have reported that post and I hope others will too.

We have passport control at all entry and exit points in the UK. Several times when I have gone through Dover to get back to Brussels, the UKBA booths are unmanned, as are the French ones. Yes, the passport is checked by the DFDS staff, but how can they tell if it is forged, valid etc, and would they call anyone on it anyway?

misti I reported Shakeeba's post. Some things shouldn't be tolerated. I'm out as well. Reason has no place on this thread any more.

pointy some of the leavers must have seen that post too. Their silence is deafening.

I didn't see that particular post.

I certainly don't think all Roma are beggars or thieves, any more than Scousers are or Irish Travellers. I am voting Leave because I have zero confidence in the EU governance.