To be annoyed that immigration is the main issue for most people in EU debate?

[susanketty]

Whether you are 'in' or 'out', I'm getting tired of immigration being the main issue for people - sure, it will have an impact, but brexit is not going to solve any problems with immigration that people perceive, and immigration fears does not seem to be to me a good enough reason to vote out. And voting in is not going to necessarily lead to a rush of immigrants.

We are not in the Schengen area, we have border control, and EU immigrants make a net contribution to our economy. Brexiteers often say they would like a Norway-esque agreement, which seems to me like all the problems (i.e., free movement of people) with none of the advantages other than being in the trade area (which we are already).

I just think there is more to the debate than immigration and it seems to me like it's been pushed to the front of the agenda to push more people to vote out due to fear.

Mistigri My friend is a native Brit, as is her husband, who was over here working for GSK. When the Belgians were playing silly buggers with my Dh's diplomatic status, I refused to hand in my ID card until it all got sorted. They threatened to deport me then, as I refused to follow his status. I pointed out freedom of movement to be told that Belgian law takes precedence over EU rules.

Perhaps that's the UK problem....we play by the rules, the others adapt the rules to suit themselves.

Limer I was stopped last time I went back, but it was after the bombing at Brussels airport, and my car has Belgian plates. I waved my hotel booking at them, and it was fine.

BornFreeButinEUchains That's interesting about Canada. Even the UK has a very strict immigration policy - but only for those from outside the EU. So the perverse situation is that the UK can refuse entry to a highly qualified multi-lingual engineer from India simply because they won't be earning over £35,000 - but has to allow in unlimited numbers of uneducated, unskilled and jobless EU migrants - and then provide benefits, housing, NHS, education for them and all their dependants.

Perhaps that's the UK problem....we play by the rules, the others adapt the rules to suit themselves

I think there is much truth in this.

Yes Limer.

Perverse is correct,,

I just want to go back to one of the previous points about remittance being sent out of the U.K. When people are classed as a net contributer does the calculation include money they earn and spend here? Fat dad, I think it was you who didn't think that this was in the main an issue?

I have another anecdote for you . I was in the local corner shop last night talking to the Indian woman who owns it. We were discussing the referendum as she has a leave poster up in the window. I was interested as she is herself a second generation immigrant. Anyway we got talking and she said that her family owns three shops in the town. Between all three of them their money sending service sends an average of 20k A WEEK to E European countries. She said the shop I was in sends about 6k a week and the other two which is closer to the HMOs and town sends another 14k a week.

This is just in one town which doesn't have a massive (although it is reasonable) influx of E European immigrants. I know you aren't interested in anecdotes but I thought this was quite interesting. Especially if the net contribution figures include this money.

but has to allow in unlimited numbers of uneducated, unskilled and jobless EU migrants

In my city, the Big Issue is now sold exclusively by Romanians who speak hardly a word of English. That's a vibrant demonstration of the benefits to this country of EU free movement: more begging.

Just another quick thought. I feel like there is an overriding opinion that unless someone has all the facts and figures to hand and understands the ins and outs of the whole campaign then their opinion is disregarded. Many of us do base our voting choice on our own life anecdotes. You can tell me over and over that I am wrong about immigration and it's a positive thing overall. But if my experience everyday is the opposite that's how I will vote. It's not ignorance or lack of education. The turkey doesn't generally vote for Christmas because you tell her it will be better for all the other turkeys and just a bit shit for her.

Snap with regards to Big Issue sellers Bolograph My city also has organised begging, young Romanians are dropped off from vans every evening, they gather their sleeping bags around them and sit cross-legged in doorways near pubs & clubs asking for spare change.

can an EU person living on welfare in an EU country simply relocate to England and continue claiming? I suppose he would have to give up his council flat back in, say, Holland

EU regulations don't say you have to give benefits to foreigners. They just say that you have to treat all EU citizens alike. So an EU citizen pitching up in the UK jobless (and this would include me if I returned from France, even though I am British) would have to meet the qualifying period of residence first - think it's 3 months but don't quote me. And then they would have to meet the normal conditions for any benefit claimed - so for eg to get JSA they'd have to meet the job search conditions.

It works the same everywhere. You, as an EU citizen, could pitch up in France tomorrow, and if you have paid NI in recent years, you would be able to access the healthcare and family benefits systems immediately. If you haven't paid NI, no problem - register as a sole trader (no need to actually declare any income!) and you'll be in the system. In theory it's possible to do neither of these things and still get into the system, though in practice it is a little more difficult.

Once you've done this you'll get healthcare, family benefits and the local equivalent of JSA on exactly the same terms as French person, assuming your french is good enough to negotiate the system (probably fewer than 1 in 20 Britons in France speak French anywhere near fluently). What you won't get immediately is a french pension or french unemployment insurance both of which are strictly contributory - you have to pay in for a minimum period of time but once you've done that they are rather generous (if I was made redundant they'd pay me most of my salary for 3 years, because I've been laying in for a long time).

It's safe to say that there are a lot of misconceptions about this!

And you know, I have obtained every job I have ever had in fair competition and because I was the best candidate on the day.

Sadly, the reality for many now is that the best candidate for a job is the cheapest candidate for that job, and that's more often than not the newly arrived Eastern European candidate.

assuming your french is good enough to negotiate the system

Another thing we could do in the UK: stop providing translators. No-one else does.

My city also has organised begging, young Romanians are dropped off from vans every evening, they gather their sleeping bags around them and sit cross-legged in doorways near pubs & clubs asking for spare change

You have to wonder what's in it for the young Romanians concerned :( If this is a result of trafficking then it should be possible to stamp it out, there is already legislation on the minimum wage and human trafficking that could be used to prevent this.

You see a lot of homeless young Eastern European men in London now, and I do wonder whether the press constantly banging on about how generous benefits are hasn't actually made the problem worse. This type of misinformation brings young people to London - where they find out too late that benefits and affordable accommodation are almost non-existent for young single people. I am sure many of these people would return home if they could afford to do so.

Another thing we could do in the UK: stop providing translators. No-one else does.

Yes, although I think you'll probably find that most of the money spent on translators and interpreters isn't actually for european languages. Most EU immigrants in the UK already speak some english, or quickly acquire it once they've arrived.

Most EU immigrants in the UK already speak some english, or quickly acquire it once they've arrived.

You would think that, wouldn't you. And you would be very, very wrong.

I agree with you there for the most part Mistigri

But the poverty in many parts of Eastern Europe is shocking - and ethnic minorities such as the Roma are discriminated against. Believe it or not, for some, organised begging in a cold, wet UK city is preferable to the life they've come from. For others, undoubtedly they've been sold a dream of the streets being paved with gold.

Single coach ticket London - Bucharest is approx £80. Certainly a lot for someone who's working cash-in-hand or begging, but not impossible.

Chardonnay then maybe we should be looking at the rates of pay that mean people need benefits to be able to afford to live. Maybe we should be paying a genuine living wage, so that there is a level playing field on pay. Maybe we should be jailing employers who are found not to be paying whatever the minimum wage is. Fixing the actual problem, instead of blaming the forriners.

Maybe we should.

But how many employers would you propose we jail?
It's a simple supply and demand situation, basic capitalism.
We can try and provide a higher minimum wage, all this will do is bring more people to an already saturated market.

Freedom of movement for work only works if the economies in the pool are with a similar wage and living standard.

But the poverty in many parts of Eastern Europe is shocking - and ethnic minorities such as the Roma are discriminated against. Believe it or not, for some, organised begging in a cold, wet UK city is preferable to the life they've come from.

Limer, I'm sure this is true. I don't know what proportion of immigrants we are talking about here - I suspect it's a tiny, but very visible, minority - but nevertheless the cost in human misery is shocking. It would honestly surprise me if it wasn't possible to use legal means of preventing this, it's more a trafficking and exploitation issue than an immigration one IMO.

Chardonnay it would be interesting to know the costs of providing EU vs non-EU translators. I guess it depends what circles you move in - my employer has a lot of EU employees at its main UK plant and obviously all the technical and management people speak and write perfect English - but the cleaners (who seem to be mostly Polish) are pretty fluent too.

I do agree that the onus is in immigrants to learn their host nation's language. The grumpy old woman in me would love to send home all the Britons in Spain and France whose grasp of the language doesn't extend much further than ordering a drink in a bar . I'm not sure where you would put them all though ;)

If this is a result of trafficking then it should be possible to stamp it out, there is already legislation on the minimum wage and human trafficking that could be used to prevent this.

This may seem strange to you as you no longer live permanently in the UK, but there is no longer any will to enforce the law.

Migrants are supposed to return to their 'home countries' if they have been unemployed for 3 months - but nobody enforces that because nobody knows how long a migrant has actually been here. That's why we have Eastern Europeans living rough on our streets - not just one or two but groups of 20 or 30 in some streets in my nearest large town, including women and children.

We have caravans and tents in the streets of some inner-city residential areas with migrants using the open storm drains in the streets as a basic form of sanitation. They are living in the 1st world, in 3rd world conditions. These homeless people are not moved on and the Local Authority does not attempt to help because it knows it has neither the housing nor the money to do so.

It os obviously beneficial for these people to be here as they evidently manage to find food and can often be seen begging in the street.

I don't think that that's what 'free movement of people' was supposed to achieve but it is inevitable when you have very rich countries within the EU and very poor countries. And the net clutch of countries that are planned to join the EU are very poor countries - Albania, Macedonia, Bosnia. Of course their citizens will migrate to the richer countries in search of a better life - I would do the same.

The point is that the EU project is not working.

If we stay in the EU we will face continued self-selecting migration from the poorer EU countries which will be a deadweight on our services and will eventually make us unable to provide for our own habitually resident UK citizens.

I didn't spend my working life and my whole adulthood trying to improve my country, its society and the conditions in which we live to have all this dragged down by the burden of mass uncontrolled migration that does nothing to benefit the host country and very little to permanently improve the life in the UK of the migrants either.

Mistir - we had a comparrison benefit thread a while ago. Britain and Germany I think came out by far the top - in the range and type of benefits.

Your not talking about an equal playing field, so saying we can rock up in Romania and get what the citizen there is entitled too means zilch.

I have no problem with implementing a system that tracks who comes and goes accurately. I do have some issues with deporting people who don't work just on the grounds of nationality - there must be lost of people like me who have always worked and paid in, who own property here - what sort of blanket law would you propose that take into account how long people have worked and paid in? Should people like me be treated the same as someone who arrived 6 months ago, just because we have been made redundant or fallen ill? Why are people like me worth less than native Brits who may never have worked at all? It isn't a simple question.

there is no longer any will to enforce the law

If there has been a collapse of the rule of law then this is an entirely domestic issue surely? It's a pretty serious accusation which suggests that your government is a lot more incompetent than I thought. Though tbh I saw little evidence of this last week in London, it doesn't seem any less law abiding than it ever has been.

Your not talking about an equal playing field, so saying we can rock up in Romania and get what the citizen there is entitled too means zilch.

That's true. But for every Romanian playing the system in the UK you'll find a Briton exploiting the French system. I understand why this pisses people off, because actually it pisses me off too (especially the ones who don't speak french and are therefore exlcuded from the jobs market) - but the problem is that it's actually quite hard to find ways of just keeping the "good" immigrants.

Your not worth less than a native britian, but our government has a responsibility to protect and put uk citizens first.

so in the eyes of the government - the uk person should come first. this is why we have government.

If there has been a collapse of the rule of law then this is an entirely domestic issue surely?

I suspect that for a lot of people who aren't going to vote on the basis of being patronised by Eddie izzard and called racists by the Labour party, that's precisely the point.

The government are implementing open borders, and by withdrawing from the EU they will be forced to stop it. It's misguided on so many levels, but since the remain campaign's current strategy consists of MPs telling voters that they're racists and their towns are shit, and things are much better in London, that the leave voters aren't being totally rational is the least of our problems.

This is the intellectual level of the remain campaign (the Shadow Europe Minister) at the moment. It breaks my heart to say it, but even though I absolutely believe in the EU, morons like Pat Glass make me question whether I'm on the right side.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-36334488