To be annoyed that immigration is the main issue for most people in EU debate?

[susanketty]

Whether you are 'in' or 'out', I'm getting tired of immigration being the main issue for people - sure, it will have an impact, but brexit is not going to solve any problems with immigration that people perceive, and immigration fears does not seem to be to me a good enough reason to vote out. And voting in is not going to necessarily lead to a rush of immigrants.

We are not in the Schengen area, we have border control, and EU immigrants make a net contribution to our economy. Brexiteers often say they would like a Norway-esque agreement, which seems to me like all the problems (i.e., free movement of people) with none of the advantages other than being in the trade area (which we are already).

I just think there is more to the debate than immigration and it seems to me like it's been pushed to the front of the agenda to push more people to vote out due to fear.

We all know,border controls for EU nationals are based on a quick cursory glance.

If the last 4 times I came back from my native Netherlands are anything to go by, not so much. They were questioning everyone with an EU passport: 'Where are you staying?' 'How long are you staying for?' 'What is the purpose of your visit?'. Some bewildered faces when I said I have lived here for the past almost 19 years... Things have definitely tightened up.

Not that I think this is a bad thing.

That's interesting Mistigri, as none of my circle receive any Belgian benefits at all, apart from perhaps child benefit. The Belgians want to know that you can pay your way here, and when a friend renewed her ID card, she was told to have a specific type as it made it harder for her to be chucked out if her dh lost his job.

Presumably if your friend risks deportation she's not from the EU anyway? I'm talking specifically about Britons who are EU citizens. We also have quite a lot of Americans in our group who are either here on work visas or are the partner of an American with a work visa or of a French person. It's tough for them as they are entitled to nothing - it's especially disastrous when relationships fail as they may be unable to leave due to having kids here, but have no way of supporting themselves :(

I don't know about Belgium obviously but in France if you have more than 2 kids (as many Brits here do, this corner of france tends to attract families!) just non-'means-tested child benefit can amount to a few hundred euros a month. On top you'll get grants for school kit (a few hundred a year), help with your rent, help with your childcare - these are means tested but the cut offs are quite generous (a couple with 2 kids, both in minimum wage jobs would probably qualify).

We all know,border controls for EU nationals are based on a quick cursory glance.

On one recent trip, I was questioned by a border control agent when leaving the UK. I have no idea what that was about!

Populations:

Switzerland 8.5 million area 41,285 km2
U.Kingdom 65 million area 243,610 km2

UK is approx over 7½ times more populated than Switzerland, and approx 5 times larger in area. I think Switzerland may become as densely packed as we are in the next 50+ years.

If the last 4 times I came back from my native Netherlands are anything to go by, not so much. They were questioning everyone with an EU passport: 'Where are you staying?' 'How long are you staying for?' 'What is the purpose of your visit?'. Some bewildered faces when I said I have lived here for the past almost 19 years... Things have definitely tightened up.

Tightened up how? Unless you said you had a bomb in your suitcase, they couldn't stop you coming in. All that's happened is they want to collect more data.

UK is approx over 7½ times more populated than Switzerland, and approx 5 times larger in area. I think Switzerland may become as densely packed as we are in the next 50+ years.

You might want to take geography into consideration here. About half of Switzerland is basically not capable of supporting high population densities, because it is occupied by mountains! The UK is capable of supporting much higher densities.

Tightened up how? Unless you said you had a bomb in your suitcase, they couldn't stop you coming in. All that's happened is they want to collect more data.

I'm still curious to know how the leave camp propose to tighten up immigration controls at airports without resorting to visas.

It's not about stopping people coming in, it's about having a controlled immigration policy. Tourists are welcome from anywhere. A controlled immigration policy would allow only those who've been accepted to take jobs, use the NHS, settle here, have their children educated, claim off the state etc.

Limer yes, I agree with all that. But how do you change actual border controls to make sure that only tourists enter? (I assume you include business travellers in the tourist category).

Remember that most illegal immigrants in the UK entered the country legally, through Heathrow Airport!

We're discussing legal (from the EU), not illegal (from everywhere else), immigration.

I want to stop the ability of anyone from the EU from arriving here (by whatever means) and being able to instantly access all that the UK offers to its own citizens. Jobs, social housing, education, benefits, NHS, etc.

Limer I was responding to a poster who suggested EU passports only got a cursory glance. Which in the case of Harwich and Gatwick is clearly not true.

I should hope they wouldn't try to stop me coming in, I have a job and a house to go to.

We're discussing legal (from the EU), not illegal (from everywhere else), immigration.

I want to stop the ability of anyone from the EU from arriving here (by whatever means) and being able to instantly access all that the UK offers to its own citizens. Jobs, social housing, education, benefits, NHS, etc.

Then border controls are a non-issue. I suppose the question then becomes: what do you do about people already here? How do you distinguish an EU passport holder who has the right to work in the UK, and one who doesn't?

I'm still curious to know how the leave camp propose to tighten up immigration controls at airports without resorting to visas.

No-one has accused the US of being careless about their borders, or lacking control. The Japanese make the Americans look positively relaxed.

You don't need a visa, as a UK citizen, to enter either of those as a tourist or business visitor for up to 90 days, any more than (contrary to what Alan Johnson was lying talking about) you needed a visa to enter France or Spain in the 1970s. On the other hand, they record your entry, and if you overstay you are (a) likely to be expelled if caught and (b) likely to have great trouble entering the country again. Could someone outline what would be wrong with that system for the UK? Expel anyone who overstays and refuse them entry to the country again: no burden for legitimate visitors, is it?

I agree pointythings

They can't, and shouldn't, stop anyone from coming in (apart from the usual checks for criminals, terrorists, smugglers, etc). It's once they're here - we need to stop the ability of anyone from the EU accessing our public services and jobs market. Introduce a controlled immigration policy and invite only those the country needs to settle here.

How do you distinguish an EU passport holder who has the right to work in the UK, and one who doesn't?

That will depend on the rules of the immigration policy that's introduced following Brexit. Probably something along the lines of, if you're already working here, you get the right to stay in that job, but anyone new must apply for the right to work.

Limer and what do you do about people working in casual, seasonal jobs or in the informal economy, or those who have been employed but are temporarily out of work? For example, a Polish care worker who is taking time out of work to raise children; a Portuguese cleaner working cash-in-hand; a Romanian agricultural worker doing seasonal work; a British "builder" in France doing odd jobs on the black? (There are lots of the last group around here and believe me: you are welcome to them).

I don't think what you want is fundamentally illogical (if you think immigration generally is a "bad thing") but in practice it's not an easy thing to do, and it will be complicated to decide who actually has the right to remain.

Mistigri Casual and seasonal work can also have visas issued associated with the work. By all means allow a gang of fruit-pickers to come in from Bulgaria for the season. If someone is totally off the cards, e.g. a British student in France who went travelling for the summer, then took a cash-in-hand job in a bar for a few weeks - really there's little that the state can do about that, apart from deport that student and fine the employer if they were caught. But I wouldn't expect the state to supply social housing, benefits or free healthcare to that student. Or start paying the equivalent of JSA when the bar work finished.

I don't think controlled immigration is a "bad thing". But I do think that uncontrolled immigration is a "bad thing". The two "things" are very different.

I think it's complicated. I suspect the benefits system has something to do with it - have no experience of that myself, I've always been in well-paid graduate employment so no top-ups. DH and I don't get child benefit either due to his employment status (US national working for US government). I think those countries which have a contribution-based benefit system do better because someone has to pay in before they can get out. And that's fair.

I do however get very tired of the 'stealing our jobs' rhetoric. It implies immigrants are more or less solely responsible for the housing crisis,l when the truth is much, much more complex than that. And you know, I have obtained every job I have ever had in fair competition and because I was the best candidate on the day.

You needn't worry yourself about who has the right to stay Mistigirl. You wont be making that decision.

BTW what is the situation in France now since Merkel told all the Syrian Refugees to "Come one and all" and then had around 2,000,000 refugees and chancers from all over the globe turn up on her doorstep? The last I heard was the refugees challenged her over her "False promises of a better life" and then Merkel stated EU needs to tighten its borders - You know after the rest of the EU countries put up wire fences to prevent any more immigrants from entering.

Are the immigrants still in France? How many is she looking at sending our way once they receive their EU permits?

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11053440/UK-border-controls-in-chaos.html

Major questions have been raised over Britain’s ability to catch jihadist terrorist suspects returning to the country, after figures showed that thousands of illegal immigrants are disappearing through the UK’s porous borders every year.

The Home Office data, obtained by The Telegraph, show a dramatic increase in the proportion of immigrants who vanish after being stopped at border checks for carrying false passports or incorrect visas.

Seaports handling coach-loads of visitors, and border checks on the Eurostar route at Lille in France, are believed to have been particularly vulnerable to illegal immigrants in recent years.

www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/4877819/immigration-border-out-of-control-tony-smith.html

Speaking for the first time since retiring from his government post last month, Mr Smith blamed the crisis on a surge of asylum seekers and illegal immigrants who flocked in under Labour from 2000 to 2003. He revealed many had simply ditched their passports and changed their names to avoid detection and stay.

He said: “That’s one of the big problems. We just don’t know who’s here and who isn’t.

“The immigration process has been a very tricky journey.

“That was the time we had 100,000 asylum seekers arriving a year — people camping on the beaches in Dover.

“There was a huge influx and frankly I don’t think we have ever recovered from that.

“It’s quite hard when people come into the country in large numbers. There’s little you can do other than take their details and pass them on.”

This is even worse.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/21/poor-eu-border-controls-put-britain-in-danger/

Frontex warns that the number of people trying to get into Britain fraudulently surged by 70 per cent last year. So having exposed the UK to this risk, the EU then ties our hands in dealing with it. We’re forced to rely on potentially illegitimate documents issued by another EU state.

In an EU of 28, that system is only as strong as its weakest link. As former head of Interpol Ronald Noble points out, eight EU members are on Interpol’s top 10 list of nations reporting stolen or lost passports. None systematically screens passports at their borders.

EU law dictates the UK can’t insist on issuing its own permits, can’t simply refuse entry because of an alert on an international warning system, and can’t automatically bar from entry those nationals lacking proper travel documents. We have to admit someone bearing an EU passport – even from a country where fraud is widespread

The Border Force glance at your passport and wave you on.” UK intelligence and police are stretched trying to monitor those already in the country, who present a risk. The last thing they need is for that list to keep growing, because of lax border controls.

^ This is what I mean, when we are told we have border controls.

Can you see that from the EU really, we dont!

And you know, I have obtained every job I have ever had in fair competition and because I was the best candidate on the day.

So has everyone who was ever given a job. Problem is, there are many millions (the government has no idea how many) who have moved here from far poorer EU countries. They are, in the main, hard-working and law-abiding people who have gained those jobs by fair competition. But the ones who didn't get those jobs (the native Brits) have to be supported by the taxpayer in the meantime. And wages are low - so the new EU workers get housing benefit, child & tax credits.

There are getting on for 2 million claiming JSA in the UK. Many of these people aren't highly qualified, they can only aspire to low-skilled or unskilled work. Yet when applying for such jobs, they're up against EU migrants who will accept lower wages and poorer working conditions.

Whilst we are in the EU we cannot stop any person with EU status from entering and living off the country. Once we leave the EU Britain will be able to take control of our borders.

Look, nobody has said Britain doesn't want any immigrants. We do. We want the people from overseas who have something to offer us like Doctors, nurses, engineers, skilled workers.... We do not need millions of young, fit mean who want an easy life who will contribute nothing.

At a certain level, I am sure the competiton for jobs does become more about the candidates abiltiy.

But at the lower levels we know EE will take less money and perhaps less good working conditions, longer hours etc

But why should UK citizens suddenly have to face competition for jobs with the whole of EU ANYWAY?

In Canada, there is a lengthy process for visas.to make sure you are not taking a job from a canadian.

This makes perfect sense to me! Why would I want to take a job, move my family out there - knowing - a canadian would be out of work?

I would like my government to protect jobs for British workers.

I forgot to add, even in blue collar jobs - ie building and plastering you have to prove you can do these jobs and you are not taking a job from a canadian.

we cannot stop any person with EU status from entering and living off the country.

This is what I was trying to ascertain upthread, from Mistigri as she's in Europe. In other words, can an EU person living on welfare in an EU country simply relocate to England and continue claiming? I suppose he would have to give up his council flat back in, say, Holland.

This type of EU person we do not want.