To be annoyed that immigration is the main issue for most people in EU debate?

[susanketty]

Whether you are 'in' or 'out', I'm getting tired of immigration being the main issue for people - sure, it will have an impact, but brexit is not going to solve any problems with immigration that people perceive, and immigration fears does not seem to be to me a good enough reason to vote out. And voting in is not going to necessarily lead to a rush of immigrants.

We are not in the Schengen area, we have border control, and EU immigrants make a net contribution to our economy. Brexiteers often say they would like a Norway-esque agreement, which seems to me like all the problems (i.e., free movement of people) with none of the advantages other than being in the trade area (which we are already).

I just think there is more to the debate than immigration and it seems to me like it's been pushed to the front of the agenda to push more people to vote out due to fear.

To some extent the problem can be laid at the door of margaret thatcher and her assault on the sectoral free collective bargaining of wages. There was no reason why unions could not have gained a proper foothold in the private services sector, as they do in Northern Europe.

If employers were required to pay all workers a decent sectoral minimum wage, wherever they were coming from, there would be no incentive to bring in overseas workers as they would no longer be cheap. And we would no longer have to fund low wages in the uk through tax transfers (working tax credits).

Funnily enough the desire for a sectoral minimum wage (enforced by regulation or collective bargaining) is behind the latest attempts to reform the 'posted workers directive' - so as to require employers of migrant workers to match the sectoral pay that would have been paid to local workers and prevent wage-undercutting - but only where there are legally enforceable collective agreements across the economy of the member state, so no help to us. And anyway, 10 central and Eastern European States have immediately lodged 'reasoned objections' on the basis that it would make their workers too expensive and lose their competitive advantage. It's a complicated picture.

Honestly, I am appalled at the xenophobic nonsense I am reading.

Motheroffourdragons, I have gone back to p.7 and cannot see anyone calling you a "liar", which is one of your accusations. If you think some of us are xenophobic, then you have not travelled.

I, in turn, am appalled at your level of ignorance as to what the EU is really about. It is not just a trading bloc.

EU is run by bureaucrats who have power without accountability.

It is not a true democracy, and is called a ‘pooled sovereignty’ – camouflage language.

The EU Parliament is not the body in charge of the EU, and it is not a parliament as we understand such a body to be.

MEPs from all countries in the EU Parliament cannot propose legislation or even repeal it. They can only vote on proposals made by unelected commissioners. EU Parliament is therefore irrelevant and MEPs pointless.

Legislative power is not with EU Parliament but with EU officials who debate laws in secret; no one is allowed to hear or read their debates, then it is presented to the MEPs. UK’s European Commissioner is Jonathan Hill – ever heard of him? He was briefly Leader of the House of Lords.

The seeds of a US of Europe were sown in the 1920s. EU was designed so that people could not control government in the future. It is a dictatorship, deliberately anti-democratic. By joining the EU a massive transfer of power occurred because now, for one, you cannot remove those who govern you. Ever.

We have been promised prosperity and safety within the EU, but there is the danger of being dragged into some future situation that we as a country do not want involvement in – simply because we have been out-voted by the other 27 member states (soon to be more).

Most of us know how elections in the UK are run. It is virtually impossible to work out how the appointment of a European Commissioner is done. Who is involved, who is answerable to whom.

There are 7 main institutions, some of which are

• The European Council
• The Council of he European Union
• Court of Justice of the European Union
• The European Commission
• European Parliament

We need sovereignty in order to shape our own future. Here's an example of what they spend their time on; there are currently 2,653 pieces of EU legislation about MILK.

Interesting how some posters seem to have more information on the effects of immigration than our own government does.
As the house of Lords stated 'the biggest beneficiaries from international migration are migrants themselves'.
The Scottish government say 'despite considerable research activity on migration issues, there are significant gaps in knowledge about the impact of migration on Scotland's economy and society'.

We do know however that any negative effects mainly affect low earners which is why I'm guessing it's not of much concern to certain posters here.

So is it unreasonable to be concerned about the effects of immigration? No, not for those affected by it and it's certainly not xenophobic.

Well said CaseInPoint The government has absolutely no idea how many EU migrants are here - they admitted last week that they've issued three times as many NI numbers than the so-called headcount. They don't bother to count anybody who says they're coming for less than a year. Plenty arrive as visitors, start work, stay here and are never counted.

And once a migrant has lived here for five years, they're not counted as a migrant any more. So all the associated costs that happen then - such as social housing, NHS usage for childbirth, education of children - none of that's counted as migration costs.

We have massively overstretched public services, yet no way of stopping more and more people (who in the main are not net contributors) arriving and instantly being entitled to their share.

Take a look at this link. Our first EU army it seems!

UK 4th Brigade & 2nd Bn Yorkshire Regt become the EU High Readiness Battlegroup, commanded by Council of EU.

twitter.com/COLRICHARDKEMP/status/734015680840892416?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Absolutely, Limer. Could it be that some of us use our ...errr faculties, such as observation instead of poring over mangled statistics?

Interesting how some posters seem to have more information on the effects of immigration than our own government does

From the top down at the start of the crisis in 2006 etc Blair did not want to discuss immigration let alone count anyone in, or track or record the movement of people.

So, now its a critiical hot topic, that cannot be controlled from within the EU it does not surprise me, that the government now, want to fudge and hide figures.

Re someone calling Mother 'liar':

wasonthelist Yesterday 13:51
"Immigration will not change post a leave vote"
That's a straight out lie. You cannot state that with any certainty.

YANBU. Many people have no understanding of major political & economic issues beyond "No more immigrants, our boat is full".

It's a well-known problem with referendums (and democracy in general, one may argue) that giving equal voice to everyone results in the simplest and most populist issues affecting the outcome.

OP - Take a look at the map at the bottom of this BBC report on today's Austrian elections: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36351359

People didn't suddenly wake up one day and decide to vote in this way. Something is going on and it is very, very worrying. Where do you think we are heading and why do you think we are heading there, right now, at this point in history?

Immigration is not the only reason people want to leave the EU but it is certainly a factor. Most Brexiters do not want to close our borders completely but controlled immigration should be uppermost in everyone's minds.

I've just heard on BBC1 that the EU has ordered our HMRC to refund £8 billion back to big business in the UK. Another £8 billion has to be refunded by the end of this decade!

As an immigrant myself it's getting pretty depressing to read the British press. You'd think that people like me were the cause of all the world's ills rather than what we are - a group of people who are harder working and more aspirational than the general population, and who are on average (for immigrants of working age) a net economic benefit to their host country.

I don't think that a debate on the "right" levels of immigration is necessarily damaging or racist. But it would be nice if it were an informed debate. I sat on a plane on Friday and got talking to someone who kindly informed me that I was wrong about how foreigners can or can't access the EU health system on which I depend and for which my husband works. Her source? Nigel fucking Lawson.

There's also a weird conflation of "controlling immigration" and "controlling our borders". The UK isn't in Schenghen so everyone, including British passport holders, has to pass through border controls on entry.

Leaving the EU will make no practical difference to border controls unless people are really proposing (as at least one Tory minister has done) that visas are required for EU travel - something which would be hugely costly (in the economic sense) and disruptive to business and tourism.

The question is whether leaving the EU will really result in lower levels of immigration. One of the more pragmatic articles I've seen on the subject concluded that a Norway-type agreement would almost certainly be the result, simply because it's the only "off the shelf" type of agreement available that could be achieved in 2 years. (Norway is in the EEA and therefore is part of Schenghen and free movement).

a group of people who are harder working and more aspirational than the general population Bullshit

on which I depend and for which my husband works. So you don't work? A household of 2+ with one taxpayer is unlikely to be a net contributer.

Motheroffourdragons. You are not going to encounter much xenophobia in Europe.

Whether you admit it or not, there are far more undocumented people in Britain than stats show. 1.2m more EU migrants have NINos in the past five years than have shown up in immigration statistics, and not all can be explained away as 'short-term' entry.

Yes, you are right, The Remainers do keep slagging off the Brexiters.

caseinpoint I have been working in my host country for 18 years with no breaks, as a business owner and latterly as a salaried person. I am most definitely a net contributor.

But making it personal is irrelevant anyway, as the economic impacts of immigration are rather well understood (I am an economist).

As for "harder working and more aspirational", there is a good reason why immigrants typically take jobs that are unattractive to local populations, and why their children typically do better at school than native children of the same socio-economic groups. These are people who can and will "get on their bikes" in search of jobs and better life chances.

As an immigrant myself it's getting pretty depressing to read the British press. You'd think that people like me were the cause of all the world's ills rather than what we are - a group of people who are harder working and more aspirational than the general population, and who are on average (for immigrants of working age) a net economic benefit to their host country

How odd Mistri, I have loads of immigrants in my family and they able to differentiate between being an immigrant and the problems that come with mass immigration?

Also there are posts back which show some immigrants clearly not being postivie contributers to our society.

As a brit, I am well aware of the problems caused in places like Magaluf, by drunk Brits.

It embarrasses me, if I came across a resident bemoaning these types to me, I wouldn't deny it?! Because that would be gas lighting. They don't represent all Brits, but they are a problem.

You were the one who got personal calling the indigenous population lazy and mentioning your husband mistigirl. I was just responding. Working for 18 years doesn't necessarily make you a net contributer.

Misti I know there are immigrants in the UK who are exactly as you describe.

The question for the UK is - just how many of these people do we need?

Yes some,of course but not millions.

But yes, they are a lovely positive contribution to the UK.

However your flogging a dead horse,tell me for instance that every single immigrant who comes here is a positive contribution.

I have seen with my own eyes the trouble makers I am afraid, and not just a handful but at one point, a seemingly never ending succession of young men ( and women ) intent on drinking, parties and violence and anti social behaviour.

There's also a weird conflation of "controlling immigration" and "controlling our borders". The UK isn't in Schenghen so everyone, including British passport holders, has to pass through border controls on entry

We all know,border controls for EU nationals are based on a quick cursory glance.

We also know, rapists and murderers and criminals are being waived through because there is little information sharing.

Yes we have border controls but there is relaxed attitude to the EU Nationals.

One of the more pragmatic articles I've seen on the subject concluded that a Norway-type agreement would almost certainly be the result, simply because it's the only "off the shelf" type of agreement available that could be achieved in 2 years. (Norway is in the EEA and therefore is part of Schenghen and free movement)

sorry - but this has been churned out over and over again.

Norway had no issue with immigration when it brokered its trade deals. You make it sound like Norway fought tooth and nail not to accept free movement of people and yet this is not the case.

We do, we have a massive issue with it and it would be at the forefront of any new deal.

As an immigrant myself it's getting pretty depressing to read the British press. You'd think that people like me were the cause of all the world's ills rather than what we are - a group of people who are harder working and more aspirational than the general population,

How fucking dare you insult the hard working people who were born in the country you were fortunate enough to be allowed to live in in this way.

I don't give a shiny shit if you are a net contributor, with that attitude I would prefer you to take yourself back to whichever virtuous country that churns out these much more productive people and be a net contributor there. I'm pretty sure that government would like that as well.

I'm pretty sure you'd rather stay here though, with all of us lazy people who were doing such a shot job in this country before you came.

That statement may be what sums up the argument for brexit as far as I am concerned.