To be annoyed that immigration is the main issue for most people in EU debate?

[susanketty]

Whether you are 'in' or 'out', I'm getting tired of immigration being the main issue for people - sure, it will have an impact, but brexit is not going to solve any problems with immigration that people perceive, and immigration fears does not seem to be to me a good enough reason to vote out. And voting in is not going to necessarily lead to a rush of immigrants.

We are not in the Schengen area, we have border control, and EU immigrants make a net contribution to our economy. Brexiteers often say they would like a Norway-esque agreement, which seems to me like all the problems (i.e., free movement of people) with none of the advantages other than being in the trade area (which we are already).

I just think there is more to the debate than immigration and it seems to me like it's been pushed to the front of the agenda to push more people to vote out due to fear.

Motheroffourdragons.
Every negotiation is a fresh opportunity. Endlessly stating that we will not get a better deal than Norway and Switzerland, is lame thinking.

Both sides need to know their own parameters.

Have you ever been privy to a multi-million pound pow-wow - at least on the fringes of it? One party may well go into the meeting with the notion they will demand exactly the same restrictions they imposed on previous Company X, but that's just the start.

It's all about getting down to the minutiae and keeping your nerve. In my view, a trade agreement with the EU could be a mixture of light tariffs-quotas-very limited on the 'people' clause.

Like Switzerland, we will trade freely with the Rest of the World with or without WTO.

LittleDrummmer I agree, such vicious contempt for the host nation does give a bad air.

You were the one who got personal calling the indigenous population lazy and mentioning your husband mistigirl. I was just responding. Working for 18 years doesn't necessarily make you a net contributer.

I did not and never would call indigenous populations "lazy". There are often good social, structural and economic reasons why it is difficult for people to take certain jobs.

Whether people are net contributors or not usually depends on what period you look at and what you include, but broadly speaking the impact of immigration on economic growth is almost always positive. (In my own case as a high earner and business owner it's not really in question).

That's not to say that immigration can't sometimes pose social and infrastructural challenges, and that's where the debate should be. But it would help considerably if the debate was more considered, more informed, and less needlessly aggressive.

How fucking dare you insult the hard working people who were born in the country you were fortunate enough to be allowed to live in in this way.

Wow. What a needlessly aggressive response.

People who move long distances and take personal risks in search of better economic and educational opportunities are by definition more aspirational than average. They are "getting on their bikes" as Norman Tebbit exhorted my generation of young Britons to do, when 3 million of us were unemployed.

That doesn't mean that I think the people who stayed behind were lazy: there are often as I said in a previous post very good reasons why people don't move. Movement is limited by family, economic and social constraints and often by education too (it is a scandal that young white working class males are so comprehensively failed by the UK education system).

Mistigri you made your views on indigenous populations very clear.

drummergirl and you are making your preconceptions about immigrants very clear. I think what I have written is quite clear.

I am British by the way - living in the EU. The rhetoric about immigration affects all immigrants.

People who move long distances and take personal risks in search of better economic and educational opportunities are by definition more aspirational than average. They are "getting on their bikes" as Norman Tebbit exhorted my generation of young Britons to do, when 3 million of us were unemployed.

Are ALL immigrants flocking to Europe in search of jobs to make sure they pay their way and thus ensure their country of choice remains affluent and a country they would proud to be part of Mistigirl? Or could most of them be opportunists who flock to richer countries hoping for a better life where they are paid for doing fuck all??

Like Switzerland, we will trade freely with the Rest of the World with or without WTO.

Switzerland is both of member of the WTO and inside the Schengen area.

Personally speaking, as an immigrant who travels a lot between the UK and EU, a Swiss-style solution would be a rather favourable outcome: it would save me queuing at immigration control every time I fly into the UK!

Or could most of them be opportunists who flock to richer countries hoping for a better life where they are paid for doing fuck all??

They certainly could be. It all depends whether this is actually what is happening. Do you have some data to support this?

I don't need data to prove it. I see it around me every day! There is no data to prove how many immigrants are in the UK or indeed Europe. The governments don't know! Do you not watch the news, read newspapers or google what is happening in Europe at the moment?

Actually my post had little to do with preconceptions about immigrants and much to do with being told I am not hard working or aspirational, the implication being lazy indigenous person who is not as worthy as you.

I live in a northern city.

Often I feel like I hardly hear English on the streets.

I don't have a problem with immigration to an extent, but when the local school literally cannot cope, you realise we need more control.
And yes, Brexit will allow it.

There are huge numbers of Big Issue sellers from the European area where I live. This just doesn't seem right.

I have 4 children. Three have to attend different schools. Number 4 is due to start school in September. I have just heard that he will not get a place in any of the schools that my other children are in. So I have to get 4 children to 4 different schools come September. The fact that in the past 4 years schools in our area contain more children, whose first language is not English, than children who are British born and live nearer the school. But that's nothing to do with immigration Ohh Nooo.....

I don't need data to prove it. I see it around me every day! There is no data to prove how many immigrants are in the UK or indeed Europe. The governments don't know! Do you not watch the news, read newspapers or google what is happening in Europe at the moment?

There's reasonable data - not perfect but nothing ever is (short of a census and even that wouldn't produce 100% reliable data).

Yes, I read the same newspaper headlines as you do. Most of them have an agenda (this is true regardless of which side they are on, by the way). But in our connected world, it is surprisingly easy for an educated, mathematically literate person to obtain information, from a range of acceptably reliable sources, upon which to base an opinion.

"Like Switzerland, we will trade freely with the Rest of the World with or without WTO."

How naive of you. More likely, you will find yourself on US's lap, economically as well as politically.

Compare Switzerland's GDP, export figures, and niche export industries with those of UK's and you will probably see why that comparison is wishful thinking.

Fluffy immigration certainly can create pressures on infrastructure and community cohesion, and it's possible to have a perfectly reasonable debate about this.

Immigrants tend to be attracted to areas with job opportunities and low unemployment. Would the pressure on school places be any different if those jobs were being filled by British people? If local councils have given planning permission for business expansions, or for new housing, why have they not also made plans to expand school place provision?

Immigrants tend to be attracted to areas with job opportunities and low unemployment. Would the pressure on school places be any different if those jobs were being filled by British people? If local councils have given planning permission for business expansions, or for new housing, why have they not also made plans to expand school place provision?

You seem to think you have all the answers so maybe you could enlighten me as to why councils are not building new schools. Fuck if I know!

littledrummergirl "I don't give a shiny shit if you are a net contributor, with that attitude I would prefer you to take yourself back to whichever virtuous country that churns out these much more productive people and be a net contributor there. I'm pretty sure that government would like that as well.

I'm pretty sure you'd rather stay here though, with all of us lazy people who were doing such a shot job in this country before you came."

Of course, Mistigirl must be an immigrant from some godforsaken poor country taking advantage of the UK. That's what all immigrants are like after all, isn't it? She couldn't possibly be a British national who has immigrated to (IIRC) France.

I think you've just revealed yourself to be a massive xenophobe.

You seem to think you have all the answers so maybe you could enlighten me as to why councils are not building new schools. Fuck if I know!

I guess one reason is because they can't afford to. Council budgets are spread thinner and thinner than ever as their area's population increases with many new arrivals who pay little, or no, council tax. And the existing ratepayers don't want a council tax increase. The money coming in to a council per head must be dropping rapidly.

That said, the most important factor though is probably that no council can plan, because they have no idea at all how many children will be requiring a school place every year. Unlimited EU arrivals make a mockery of any future planning that they do.

Fuck if I know!

You don't know (which is fine, because I don't know either. Where I live, if school places are inadequate, new ones are created. It's not rocket science.).

But if you don't know the source of the problem, why are you blaming immigrants? Is the problem perhaps more to do with a failure of regional policy, due to UK economic growth being excessively concentrated in parts of the south, creating pressure on schools and housing while other areas further north suffer from a lack of jobs and surplus housing?

Mistigri Like Switzerland, we will trade freely with the Rest of the World with or without WTO. Switzerland is both of member of the WTO and inside the Schengen area.

Do you not read posts in their entirety? I said that if we Brexit, it would be a negotiation with the aim of not having the 'people' clause at all. However, as the latter part is unlikely then imo there may be a mixture of tariff or quota in order to have a 'limited 'people' clause. It's a fresh negotiation, which does not have to go down the same road as N and S, and rather depends on how good the Brexit negotiators are.

UK needs cars and perfume etc, but EU also needs to sell those products or find another similar market. I know, how about Azerbaijan?

Littledrummergirl is 100% right and I agree with her. Retainers - Stop playing the racist card against people who want to control immigration. If you don't want to control immigration from the EU, why not open the borders to the whole world? Surely it's racist to discriminate against those not in the EU?

Of course, Mistigirl must be an immigrant from some godforsaken poor country taking advantage of the UK. That's what all immigrants are like after all, isn't it? She couldn't possibly be a British national who has immigrated to (IIRC) France.

I think you've just revealed yourself to be a massive xenophobe.

It doesn't matter what country she has moved to/from, her opinion of the indigenous population was clear.

Why was my comment xenophobic? Where have I said we don't want immigration? I objected to the bad attitude towards the indigenous population not immigration.
Controlled immigration is a good thing. Bad attitudes towards those born in your new country of choice are not.

It is now impossible to plan. Thats a major reason why the government probably won't bother with the expense of census again.

Mistigirl you obviously live in a different world to the rest of us. Are you an omnirange living in UK or are you an immigrant who has left the UK to work elsewhere? Just asking as you don't seem to have any concept of the problems in the UK caused by immigration. BTW I don't blame the immigrants. I blame a society where immigration is not controlled which causes more problems than assets