To be annoyed that immigration is the main issue for most people in EU debate?

[susanketty]

Whether you are 'in' or 'out', I'm getting tired of immigration being the main issue for people - sure, it will have an impact, but brexit is not going to solve any problems with immigration that people perceive, and immigration fears does not seem to be to me a good enough reason to vote out. And voting in is not going to necessarily lead to a rush of immigrants.

We are not in the Schengen area, we have border control, and EU immigrants make a net contribution to our economy. Brexiteers often say they would like a Norway-esque agreement, which seems to me like all the problems (i.e., free movement of people) with none of the advantages other than being in the trade area (which we are already).

I just think there is more to the debate than immigration and it seems to me like it's been pushed to the front of the agenda to push more people to vote out due to fear.

And Poland Land mass is 312,679 km²

Uk Land mass is 243,610 km²

Poland Population 38.53 million (2013)

Uk Population 64.1 million (2013)

WOW.

We are a very densely populated country compared to many in Europe. Portes was suggesting on Newsnight that we built upwards to provide new housing.

I think we have already experienced the social problems associated with the 60's idea of 'streets in the sky' and don't want to repeat that exercise.

I am just astounded that there is no planning, no preparation for this influx of migration into the UK - we are just constantly playing catch up. We didn't have sufficient affordable housing for the habitually resident UK poplulayion before the loosening of travel restrictions that allowed many hundreds of thousands of EU migranst to add to the housing shortage.

As we cannot control migration from the EU and as our minimum wage is at least 3x that in other EU countries, which is a huge draw to EU migrants, we need to acknowledge that we will be facing the arrival hundreds of thousands of more EU migrants in the coming years and must start building across the countryside to accommodate the housing, hospital, schools and infrastructure they will need.

Because we cannot limit EU migration into the UK while we remain in the EU we hd better do what the EU is telling us to do and start builidng those homes they are ordering us to build.

Why did the labour government allow the Polish to come in 2003 to work when France and Germany said no?

See, I don't think your being fair here.

You are certainly being misleading about how the EU works as well as being misleading about the EU ordering us to build more houses. I read that in the Mail yesterday and then went and did a bit more reading about it, it certainly isn't the case.

Didn't mean to offend you though.

I don't think immigration is the fundamental problem. But it remains a touchstone because it is something over which we have no control, despite the fact that a majority in this country would prefer a different policy to the one we currently have.

The issue behind immigration is control - control over our policies, control over our borders, politicians who actually have the power to deliver on their promises rather than flopping limply and claiming 'my hands are tied' and 'the EU made me do it'. The recurrent - and often exaggerated or misquoted - claims about 'Brussels meddling' and immigration both have at their root a poorly-articulated frustration with the withering away of sovereign power in the country.

Just because something is not well articulated doesn't mean it is not valid.

Immigration is only a symptom.

It's caused by the disparity in the economic conditions in Europe.
There wouldn't have been any problems with it had the EU been the union of equally developed counties.

You are certainly being misleading about how the EU works

I wasn't explaining how the EU works - I was explaining UK Constitutional democracy.

as well as being misleading about the EU ordering us to build more houses. I read that in the Mail yesterday and then went and did a bit more reading about it, it certainly isn't the case.

That's how people in the street see it. That's what an elderly lady told me - the EU has said we must build more houses. The message may be more subtle, but that's the way the public interpret it, via cursory glances at the headlines and Chinese whispers, handed own from friends, neighbours and acquaintances- just as they were telling me about Cameron's WW3 today.

Didn't mean to offend you though

I have no wish to offend either.

Why did the labour government allow the Polish to come in 2003 to work when France and Germany said no?

Because any economist will tell you that immigration stimulates the economy. Every immigrant has to buy things, pay rent/buy houses, spend money. All these actions are economic transactions.

By the time the 2003 Government had got round to noticing the pressure on schools, housing etc they had been voted out of office - no longer their problem

Immigration is only a symptom.

It's caused by the disparity in the economic conditions in Europe.
There wouldn't have been any problems with it had the EU been the union of equally developed counties

Spot on. Just as the Eurozone would not be experiencing difficulties if all constituent member country economies were similar.

Migration across the EU is what happens when some areas of the EU are more rewarding and attractive than other areas and people can decide where within that vast EU empire they chose to live and work.

It is a structural problem that is inherit in the way the EU tries to apply its one-size-fits-all policy across its disparate member states.

It won;t work and by the time we've realised it doesn't work it will be too late.

Sorry FatDad, if you've not come across Spring before, that's her entire modus operandus. Expect to see much of it on the EU threads...

Lol Hover. You innocent, you

Honestly, I am appalled at the xenophobic nonsense I am reading.

So anyone posting on a thread about EU migration is xenophobic? I think not.
Somebody called me a liar because I said in all honesty immigration won't change. I'm not a liar, I don't think immigration will change on a Brexit vote , I am perplexed to understand why folk think we will be negotiating a fab deal to allow us to keep folk out with no trade barriers and everything we want when we can't get anything we want when we are in.

I didn't call you a liar. I think it's insultingly rude to call anyone a liar. If we Brexit we will be able to develop our our immigration policy free of EU constraints. We can't get what we want while we're in as we have to abide by our Treaty obligations to allow 550 EU citizens to come to live and work in the UK.

We need to grow up and realise we live in a global community, with precious resources that we need to protect and a marketplace that we all need to be able to access to make sure everyone has a better standard of living.

Now we are getting to the heart of the matter. For some, the EU is not about trade , it;s about a form of Communism or One World Government whereby we work our socks off in the UK and share our wealth with our 'EU partners'., while our services are run into the ground on the excuse of 'austerity'. Well, what if I decided to stop working, so that Greek hairdresser was not then able to retire at age 45 or whatever?

Somebody said something upthread about why would we listen to Obama as he won't even be president come November...when the president is Trump, are we going to want to listen to him with respect to immigration policy ? Dear God, the world is going to pot!

You can't have it both ways - you can't listen to nice Mr Obama when he echoes what you think and ignore and the next post-holder because you disagree with his views.

Obama should have no say over the democratic choice of this country. Trump should have no say over our democratic choice either and conversely, we should have no influence over who the Americans chose as their leader. That's democracy. Unlike the EU.

Motheroffour following a Brexit vote, we can introduce a skills-based immigration system for EU citizens. That's a change.

Protect our resources, improve standards of living - yes. We can't do either of those things when unlimited numbers keep arriving week after week.

Migration from the EU is said to be beneficial, but this is self-selecting uncontrolled migration into the UK.

An EU migrant on minimum wage, with a partner and 2 school age children is actually a net drain on the UK,, as they use NHS services and school places and may be entitled to in work benefits and housing benefit.

The net burden of this migrant family will be offset by the many EU migrants who are a net gain to the UK.

But it seems very inefficient to permit say 30 net-contributing EU migrants in order to fund one net uncontributing EU migrant family before any benefit to the UK economy can be demonstrated.

All that does is increase the number of people present in the UK and therefore the pressure on UK services - which have not been planned and prepared to deal with this increase in volume of people. That;s why a skills-based, net contributing system of immigration policy from throughout the world is desperately needed.

Springing, not sure it was you who called me a liar, just saying.

I wasn't me. I do not call people liars. That's not my style.

Not sure why 550 EU people coming here is a problem, tbh.

550 EU migrants would be OK. The EU consists of 550,000,000 people who have the right to move to any EU member country including the UK. That is not acceptable. It means the UK cannot pre=plan the essential services it needs to accommodate all the hundreds of thousands of EU migrants who chose to come to the UK each year.

I'm not sure everybody posting about immigration is xenophobic but a lot sure are. Just read this thread, and feel very sad.

It is not xenophobic to talk about immigration or migration or to express concern at how our essential services will cope with an unplanned hundreds of thousands of eu Migrants coming to live and work in the UK each year. I am sad for the existing habitually resident UK citizens who are having to compete with these newcomers for school paces, health care and housing.

For some, the EU is not about trade , it;s about a form of Communism or One World Government whereby we work our socks off in the UK and share our wealth with our 'EU partners'., while our services are run into the ground on the excuse of 'austerity'. Well, what if I decided to stop working, so that Greek hairdresser was not then able to retire at age 45 or whatever? - really, honestly ? ? ?

Yes, really.

I'm not even sure what the argument here is.I can't believe that anybody thinks that somebody stopping work in the UK has an affect on somebody working in Greece.

Then you don;t understand the workings of the EU and the fact that some countries are net contributors (like the UK) and that when a country out=performs expectations (like the UK did ) it gets hit with an additional EU demand for money (such as the additional £1.6billion the UK had to cough up last year). So our UK workforce's retirement age is 65+ and rising while our workers subside Greek hairdressers who are deemed to be working in a 'hazardous occupation' so are permitted to retire at age 45. Fair> I don't think s.

Although to be fair we have had austerity here, but the Greeks have had a teeny bit more....

Some Greeks - not all. Some Greeks are incredibly rich - but they're the ones who don't pay taxes.

Hover Lonely darling?

It is not xenophobic to talk about immigration or migration or to express concern at how our essential services will cope

'Xenophobe' being the new 'racist' and both being a far easier way of dismissing the very real fears of a population being bullied into dismissing the evidence of their own eyes in order to conform the the new national narrative.

I'm an immigrant. I'm voting out. I hate the way this country is going, like lemmings, into a future where everyone is too bullied by the far left to tell the truth about what they see in their streets, schools, waiting rooms, A&E departments, local business etc.

So those who would remain: a question.

If we had never joined the EU, would you be clamouring to join it now and if so, why?

If we had never joined the EU, would you be clamouring to join it now and if so, why?

The question is utterly redundant as we did join. And after over 40 years of membership our economy is set up on the basis that we are part of that trading bloc. To wrench ourselves out and suffer what even the most ardent Brexiters concede will be very real short to medium pain with absolutely no assurances things will recover let alone improve in the long term is, in my mind, lunatic self-sabotage.

I haven't RTT

Free movement of people is a wonderful idea when you have countries of similar quality of life within its framework.

WTF is going to happen when more countries join? Everyone wants to come to the UK. I don't give a toss about an averaged contribution to be economy - this country is full to bursting.

We haven't the resources to cope.

With Brexit, we will no longer have that free movement in the EU area. We may let people in under trade agreements, or visa conditions. All well and good.

When you live in an area that is utterly fucked by sheer volumes - bursting local schools, huge waits in A and E, and no social housing, you do scratch your head in wonder.

motheroffour I find your stance laughable. How on earth can the UK ensure a fair quality of living for the whole of Europe?

This is communism!

Quite simply, you can't discuss the real worries of immigration without the racist card being played. Which is ridiculous as at the end of the day it is purely about numbers

Today's Sunday Telegraph might as well have a "Sponsored by Brexit" all over every page. I have never seen so very many articles against immigrants and all the rest. I expect it will appeal to some of their little Englander UKIP readers but not most of their readership. It's really turned me off.

However I agree you can be anti-immigration and not racist. Of course you can. We are a crowded country in the places where there are jobs although not in places like the wilds of Northumberland which are my spirtual home thank God.