To lose potential friends over this issue?

[kogasa]

First AIBU post, so bear with me.

I'm a very, very logical person, I like to think, but I'm struggling to reconcile my thoughts here.

I recently made a point to a lot of the people I know that I thought it was absolutely barmy to not vaccinate yourself, or your children. To me, it feels like a social responsibility - if you don't vaccinate, people with cancer, AIDS, younger kids who haven't been immunised, and a whole multitude of people are put at risk. Most people nodded in appreciation - this was provoked by a really sad article I read about some parents not vaccinating their children, and then trying to treat them with 'natural medicine' when the illnesses hit. The kid died, unsurprisingly.

However, in bringing this up, I've found out that one of my closest friends seems to believe the guff about the vaccines 'causing autism' (Nevermind that the MD who alleged this link was struck off the medical register for manipulating research for his own financial ends), or that they have 'too much aluminium that I don't want in my kid's body.' (regardless of the fact that, there's more aluminium in cheese and gaviscon than there ever is in vaccines, paired with a basic misunderstanding of chemistry and how the body excretes things.)

For a bit of background, this friend decided radically, about two years ago to become fully vegan. Fully support her there, great choice for the environment in some ways, but I won't get into that now. What came with it were some bizarre rituals where she'd only eat fruit until 4PM, but fair enough, it's not my life, and some weird beliefs involving how GMOs are obviously full of crap even though they save countless farmers in developing countries from poor yields, or hunger. And even then, fair enough. She's western and privileged, and she has the choice to buy her food, luckily for her, she is not starving.

I can tell she's been trying to pussyfoot around the issue with me, and since we talked, she's been contacting me, telling me to read countless books that, upon further inspection seem to be made by people just wanting to sell 'all natural remedies' to me, or pseudo-research paperbacks. I can tell she is trying really, really hard to make an effort to try be sensitive about this, but also pushing the idea really hard, and I get the idea that she thinks less of me, and I think less of her.
We are high school best friends and it makes me really sad that her transformation led to this. I have no issues with her diet or lifestyle, but when she starts to impact other people, I just can't help but feel disappointed and sad.

But, and here's my AIBU,
AIBU to not just 'accept a different viewpoint', and lose a potential friend over this?
I'm not going to insult her , or end the friendship, but I can't compromise my views on an issue like this. Should I?

I have a good friend who is a homeopath and holds similar views whilst I am much more conventional. We simply don't discuss it. We are both confident and happy in our own viewpoints and no amount of debate will change them. I really like and respect her for many other reasons so for me preserving the friendship is far more important than winning an argument. What is it you like about your friend op? Do you really want to lose the aspects of your friendship that are valuable to you?

For context I'd like to point out that I'm veggie and we often talk about healthier habits and the benefits of certain foods.

I'll try to clear up why I mentioned her food habits:
They changed very radically over a short period of time in which she was reading a lot of pseudo-science blogs, the ones where rock crystals heal your ailments, or green tea kills cancer. I have NO problem WHATSOEVER with her food habits, or if she uses crystals, or whatever. It makes no difference to our friendship, after all. It was mentioned because contextually I think it adds something - she slowly became involved with woo-ey trends - and some is harmless nonsense, like only eating fruit all day until dinner, or thinking aloe vera cures everything, but some of it, like anti-vaccination, IS harmful. I mentioned her eating habits because she changed drastically and I'd attribute a lot of it to the woo, and I think it adds context as it was quite upsetting seeing someone 'fall' for that. But now that she's bringing it up to me about issues like this it just makes me unsure what to do.

I really am taking everything on board and I can appreciate I seemed a bit judgemental. It was just lazy wording to show the context of our friendship as she did change quite drastically, but I can appreciate it can seem out of context or like I'm digging at her.

I would choose to avoid the topic. If she continues to push the issue, make your view known politely but strongly and that you must agree to disagree- ball's then in her court regarding friendship.

I had a friend not vaccinating kid (incredibly frustrating/sad) but wouldn't have snubbed her over it (and she eventually started jabs...)

And yes, I think GMOs help yields. You can modify crops to help them resist droughts, or pests, or viruses, resulting in more food

Yes more food initially. Then you just breed more resistant pests and viruses. Which means becoming totally reliant on the supplier to supply even more resistant seeds generation by generation. GMOs are NOT about more yields - they are about farmers becoming reliant on the suppliers.

If you only know a teeny tiny bit about a topic, probably best to steer clear!

Waitrose

Sorry, how exactly am I coming across? Is it the way I'm wording things? If so - sorry, it's just a writing style. If not, if you could help I'd actually appreciate it because I don't want to come across as pompous.

I'm baffled that you'd think it would be relevant to tell me you don't think you'd be friends with me, however...

notagiraffe

I'm a twin Mum and I can't even begin to understand who that could have happened. You take your babies into the clinic l, agree which one will be vaccinated first, do the deed, give a cuddle and then handover baby two.

Were you not in the room? Surely the injection site was visible on baby 1? Was baby 1 not still crying?

I'm really just flabbergasted.

It's fine to have different views and opinions from your friend.
You don't have to discuss them!
If she is trying to convert you to her point of view just shut that line of convo down!
Absolutely a friendship can survive differences like this if the friendship provides you with other things that you value.

Yes, you just have to complete ignore the issues on which you disagree if you want to maintain the friendship. And not discuss them at all, ever. If she cannot respect that and wants to "convert" you, do you really need her as a friend?

I have a friend who I have known for a long time and is a practising homeopath. I think homeopathy is a load of rubbish. We do not discuss her work, or medical issues in general past a polite "how's work"? type enquiry.

I think you need to decide whether your friendship is worth more than your disagreements over lifestyle etc. She sounds very high maintenance, I'd struggle with her. I'm very pro vaccine and I judge people that don't vaccinate their kids. If someone was trying to get me to read alternative medicine literature etc I'd hit the roof and I'd be very candid about my views on it, but that's just me. The food thing is her choice but if you go out for food a lot, will that hinder socialising etc? Might be that your friendship just naturally drifts if that's the case.

Doreen

As I said in the OP, and in subsequent posts, I'm not here to debate. I did post a short summary of my views, but I'm not picking a fight here, if anything the views themselves are irrelevant but I posted them for context because it's a real life situation. I consider myself somewhat educated on the topic, but I'm not a biologist, or an agriculturalist. I just try to read studies, and make sense of them, and seek reassurance from those in that field.

If you want to turn this into a debate with other posters then that's perfectly fine, but picking apart my posts without actually addressing the topic is pretty unhelpful.

I totally understand OP. One of my oldest friends has embraced all kinds of woo in the last few years, which has become increasingly tricky to avoid in conversation. When it was less extreme it was fine because I'm interested in all kinds of points of view and shared some political views, but now she's going so much down roads of bogus science and conspiracy theories, not to mention supernatural woo, that I struggle to hold my tongue. It's not a matter of judging. She's my friend and it's leading her to make some very questionable lifestyle choices that create more problems, which in turn make her more into the woo. It's hard to know when to stop avoiding the subject and when to say something, but in both our cases I'm afraid they won't be ready to listen and will just find more 'evidence' to support their views. No advice really, but I guess stay friends for as long as you both can.

I would find it hard to remain friends with someone who was anti vaccinations. I have precisely zero respect for such people.

I appreciate there are reasons why a child can't have them, that's fine and not the same as being anti vaccinations.

I think it depends how much you value her as a friend. I have a friend who is big into conspiracy stuff, it's just how she thinks, very suspicious. She has also tried to convince me to try some odd remedies for my children, I just keep repeating 'I'm going to stick to what the doctor suggested, thanks' and don't read any articles she sends me.

The thing is, she's been the best and most steadfast friend. She'd do anything for us and I've known her 10 or more years. She's like this as she genuinely cares for me and the children and wants to help us! So, we just chuckle occasionally about her latest suggestion, and carry on being really good friends, I'd hate to lose all that support and fun times over this as it does tend to be a personality thing. She also probably thinks we are a bit strange at times, other people are!

Vaccination will probably always be an emotive and argued topic (thanks, AW).
FWIW OP, I think you've stated the situation pretty clearly without malice. I appreciate that the 'social responsibility' element here is the problem- but then that's the same issue I have with friends who continue to smoke. I just have to blank it out sometimes.

I think it would actually be very difficult to have a circle of friends who all and only had exactly the same opinions and beliefs as me.

Thanks, pinkdelight, I think you articulated my issues perfectly.

It's not about me judging her, or thinking I'm high-and-mighty, it's almost a desperation, like I've lost the friend that I used to laugh with, make art with, have lunches with. Not to drip feed, but this is the person who helped me get help and get on medication when I was suffering from depression and may have well saved my life - the same person now believes most medicines are there to poison us and it just has a lot of emotions there for me as it really is a complete shift. I don't care about how she eats or what she believes for herself, but when it affects me or other people I can't just pretend my views don't exist. I don't want her to only talk to me to now bring up these bogus studies, I want her to talk to me because we're friends.

I think Doreen's point is that, despite being 'a logical person', some of your own views aren't entirely supported by the evidence. (And Doreen is a professional grower of enormous experience and wisdom, so precisely the kind of expert whose reassurance you say you value!).

The wider issue, I would say, is that none of us is so utterly expert in every single area of life that our beliefs on every subject aren't open to question. And even when we're pretty sure that our convictions are sound, that doesn't mean that we can't learn from other people.

I am an atheist. I have a friend who is a vicar. We disagree profoundly about God and a lot of other issues (he believes women should honour and obey and is positively medieval about homosexuality, I passionately believe the opposite). However, he's also the most charitable, generous, giving person I know when it comes to helping out anyone around him in need, to the point that he will sometimes work 14-16 hour days helping others and not even realise he is hungry and tired. His life in that regard is a reproach to my far more selfish one. So even if you don't see eye-to-eye on every issue, it doesn't mean that you can't appreciate other aspects of the person. Sometimes you have to take out a big black box and agree with a friend that contentious issues are going in there, and that you won't explore them because it's going to divide you. This isn't compromising your views, it's simply not being evangelical about them.

This whole area is something I struggle with too, though. Humility is not as strong a suit with me as it ought to be. So I appreciate that it's a battle, not a one-off decision.

I think it was the 'most people nodded in appreciation' that got me 😂

Could it be that she is just interested in debating with you?

Just as Doreen has tried to debate the issue with you, but you are trying to shut down debate and only discuss what you want to discuss.

Nothing wrong with saying 'let's agree to disagree' or the sake of keeping the friendship, btw.

Telling you to read countless books is not her being sensitive, it's her being pushy and annoying.

It's possible you are being pushy and annoying too. (also possible you are not)

Any agreement to be friends and just not talk about the issues on which you differ will have to come from both of you.

The fact that you are misinformed about GMO crops is relevant to your post, I think. It isn't about starting a debate on the topic on this thread.

You claim you are a logical person, but all that seems to mean in this context is that you think you are right and other people are wrong.

Your remarks about her being Western and privileged so she has a choice means that you are making a huge leap from your (incorrect) beliefs about the situation in developing countries to a moral judgement about a friend.

I think you need a little more humility and to accept that a. sometimes you have your facts wrong and b. some issues are not as simple as right or wrong but have competing and complex moral perspectives.

The fruit after 4 thing. It depends why she's doing it. Many people have rules about not eating foods that are not hugely healthy until after a certain time in the day. Fruit is often high in sugar, so it makes some sense to limit it if you can go for veg instead perhaps?

She is being annoying about the woo stuff, offering books. Can't you just agree to differ on this stuff. Is the problem that a large part of the basis of your friendship has been on discussing and agreeing what is both healthy and morally acceptable to consume? If a large part of your friendship was based on making moral judgements together, then when your judgements no longer coincide, the friendship is over.

leelu66

I appreciate my wording is a little wooden. Honestly people laugh at how I phrase stuff all the time so I cannot get worked up about that.

With respect to Doreen's views, I'm not trying to shut her down at all! I think she can debate with others here if she wants - I'm not trying to shut anyone down at all. I'm not trying to stifle any debate that other posters want to engage in, tbh.

It's just, my understanding of AIBU was that I ask something, and someone tells me if it's unreasonable or not.
Simply stating your views on GMOs or vaccines is pretty irrelevant because my AIBU wasn't "To think GMOs are good" or "To think people who refuse vaccines are idiots." That's all. And I posted here for advice, not debate. If I wanted a debate, I would have phrased it accordingly.

My closest friend has a really different attitude to me. She believes in all that 'telling the universe what you want' and it will happen nonsense. She reads a book called The Secret and is into horoscopes etc. I think it's all nonsense.
I just believe in getting on with on stuff.
We ve managed to be close for 20 yrs and we get on so well.
If there's nothing else keeping that friendship going then you'll just have to give up on it.

You are very very logical? Aren't most people? Just because you hold a different view to another person does not mean you are more logical. Her evidence base is different to yours hence why through logical reasoning you end up in different places. There has been one extensive study covering a long period of time that has found no links. However, where these econometric/statistics are concerned, the devil is in the detail. There is no guarantee that years down the line medical research won't reverse that conclusion. We've seen these reversals time and time again. We all must make the best decisions we can given the evidence available to us (based on how much faith we put in the evidence )

You do sound pompous and I don't think this friendship will survive. Mainly because you both think you areally superior to the other. The both of you need to chill and agree to disagree.

No-one is asking you to debate GMOs kogusa. What people are saying is that your own views might not be as unshakeably evidence-based as you seem to believe.

almondpudding

I guess I just don't see the relevance in it because it could be any issue causing a rift. The AIBU could just as easily be about alcohol, or smoking, or conventional medicine. (Hey, it is, kinda.) I think GMOs are pretty great and the scientific consensus is the same, from all of the information I've been given. I guess when I say I'm logical I mean I try to work with the evidence, and conclude things that way, but everyone has a bias. It wasn't meant to come off as a 'I'm right and you're wrong' thing, but honestly, I can appreciate how it's worded and I'm trying to be less uppity in how I word things, so thanks for the feed back.

As for our friendship - no, we actually started talking about that stuff on her invitation, so our friendship isn't often based around moral agreement , unless it's something like seeing something on the news and thinking it's a shame, which is basically the situation here, but with a wider group of friends.

We've been friends regardless of our differing theistic views, too, if that adds anything.