Royal College of Midwives backs abolition of abortion law that could see women terminate unborn child at any point

[ThatsMyStapler]

Surely the majority of people needing/wanting a medical abortion do so for very good reasons, and also as quickly as is possible.

Royal College of Midwives backs abolition of abortion law that could see women terminate unborn child at any point

Telegraph Link

he Royal College of Midwives (RCM) is facing criticism after calling for abortion to be decriminalised, without consulting its members on the issue.
The union, which represents almost 30,000 midwives and health workers, has said it gives its “full support” to the British Pregnancy Advisory Service (BPAS), the UK’s biggest abortion provider, in its campaign for abortion to be removed from criminal law.
Prof Cathy Warwick, chief executive of the RCM, is also chairman of the board of trustees of BPAS.
It is currently against the law for women to terminate a foetus after 24 weeks unless there is a medical reason to do so, while abortions earlier in a pregnancy are only legal if two doctors agree to it.
But the RCM is backing calls for the legal limits to be scrapped and abortion to instead be regulated in the same way as other medical procedures, at the discretion of doctors.

There is a petition to stop this, and they say;

"Your campaign is severely out of touch with what women actually think and want. A ComRes poll in March 2014 found that 88% of women favoured a total and explicit ban on sex-selective abortion, whilst another in October that year registered a similar figure of 85%. The March poll also found 92% of women agreeing that a woman requesting an abortion should always be seen in person by a qualified doctor. Whilst in 2006, a Guardian / MORI poll found that 47% of women wanted a reduction in the upper time limit, a 2012 Angus Reid poll found this number had increased to 59% of women."

Yes, I do agree with bumbley on this.

I think the key point is, we are not saying 'abortion is wrong. It should be against the law.'

We are saying that after a certain point, we believe it is wrong.

"bumble for the umpteenth time... if a woman considers late abortion to be morally wrong. Fine. They don't have to have one"

Tracey Connelly, her boy friend and lodger thought it was fine to abuse baby P to the point of death. The majority of people think they belong in jail. It's not a case if you think it not morally acceptable to murder your toddler then don't murder your own child. No one would suggest how Tracey Connelly treated baby Peter is really none of the general public's business.

The point is that certain choices want to make are not accepted by British society. A democratic decision has been made not to have abortion on demand up to term. MPs decide what is ethically acceptable.

bumble that's a ridiculous analogy. A foetus isn't, in any way, analogous to a slave.

katemiddleton that's absolutely fine if you consider abortion wrong after a certain point. What on earth is the problem in letting other women have different views about their own pregnancy?

christina, bumble isn't being remotely ridiculous in her analogy.

If you believe - as I am afraid I do - a foetus at that stage of gestation to be a person, albeit one inside another person - then you might as well say 'what on earth is the problem in letting other mothers kill their babies'?

If you believe - as I am afraid I do - a foetus at that stage of gestation to be a person, albeit one inside another person - then you might as well say 'what on earth is the problem in letting other mothers kill their babies'?

I agree.

"bumble that's a ridiculous analogy. A foetus isn't, in any way, analogous to a slave."

That is a matter of opinion.

Plenty of people believe a 38 week foetus is a person. We aren't talking about a bundle of cells at eight weeks.

It's impossible to have any wholly right or wrong solution to this though.

Ending an unwanted pregnancy is much less traumatic if you rationalise it to yourself in terms of not being a 'baby' - this is why a hell of a lot of women don't suffer the trauma & angst that others seem to.

Most women who do not want to be pregnant or have the baby will get down to the doctor the moment they miss their period.

Some women will take some time to come to a decision.

Most people seem to be able to accept up to 24 weeks for abortion 'on demand'.

Most people seem to be able to rationalise terminating a baby for medical reasons (baby not likely to thrive, or with disabilities), after the 24 week point.

I think (for most), the foetus becomes more of a 'baby' after a certain point where the chances of survival for a healthy baby are pretty good (post about 32 weeks or so?).

Most people (me included) seem to be very uncomfortable with terminating a healthy, viable foetus past the 32 week point.

Termination of pregnancy has to be decriminalised, but all if these nuances have to be addressed & debated at the same time I think.

Also what about the pain that the unborn baby may feel in being terminated. Baby's at a late stage can feel pain.

If people are seriously going to conflate the need to decriminalise abortion with examples like the Baby P case then I'm calling it a day for tonight.

Have you actually engaged at all with the reasons that women approach BPAS for late abortions? Or what the women who have emerged from domestic abuse relationships have said on this thread? Or women who have carried a foetus that they know will die shortly after birth?

I guess that will be a 'no'.

Why should people stand back and allow something to happen when they think it is wrong? To use an analogy related to lack of personhood - It would be like saying "You don't like the idea that men can kill their sperm? Then don't kill your sperm. "

Just because something is legal doesn't make it right and it certainly doesn't mean that we should just turn a blind eye to it because it's not our 'sperm' being killed.

katemiddleton if you believe that a foetus is a person at any stage of gestation then fine. do not under any circumstances have an abortion. That's absolutely fine and dandy. No one is going to make you.

Infanticide is not abortion, neither is abortion infanticide. Which is why the law very, very clearly differentiates between the two.

"
katemiddleton that's absolutely fine if you consider abortion wrong after a certain point. What on earth is the problem in letting other women have different views about their own pregnancy"

If the majority see a 38 week foetus as a person then it deserves protection from those who want to hurt it.

What is the problem with allowing Tracey Connelly to have different views about childcare to the rest of us.

Christina, absolutely and my heart goes out to those women.

That's all the MORE reason I feel we have a moral obligation to avoid further trauma to their mental state by having a medical professional end the life of a viable foetus and force her to deliver it!

I would support any woman wanting to terminate her pregnancy, but not at that late stage.

Imagine two women in the same heartbreaking situation. One gives birth prematurely at 33 weeks. Would we condone for even a second letting that baby die? I hope not. If you're reading that and thinking that's cruel and unthinkable, then that how I feel about terminating a 33 old foetus.

Infanticide is not abortion

It is when you're aborting a baby that just has the misfortune to be on the wrong side of someone's stomach.

That's ALL the difference.

mango a lot of people, me included, are hugely uncomfortable with the current cut off of 24 weeks actually.

That a baby can be desperately fought to saved in one ward at 23 weeks, whilst in another killed, entirely due to the wishes of a third party is completely and utterly morally incomprehensible.

"Or women who have carried a foetus that they know will die shortly after birth?"

Already legal under the current law.

I think ReallyTired's post about BabyP made a very sound point.

really tired because murdering a child is illegal. Having an abortion (in particular circumstances) is not.

katemiddleton" have you actually read this thread, including agatha's contributions? No-one is suggesting a late termination is an easy decision. Although some of us are upholding the right of individual women to make their own decisions about their pregnancy.

Yes, christina, I've read the thread.

If what you really mean is, I can't possibly have read the thread because your arguments are so incredibly compelling that I could only have the opposite view if I hadn't read it - how arrogant.

Having an abortion is currently illegal past 24 weeks unless in clearly defined circumstances, and rightly so IMO.

So rather than debate the decriminalisation of abortion, the current lot of posters would rather conflate women's right to make their own choices about their pregnancy with the sadistic murder of a toddler?

I have nowhere to go with this. It makes absolutely no sense to me nor the law, I'm afraid.

Although some of us are upholding the right of individual women to make their own decisions about their pregnancy.

......with no regard to the life they are ending.

They don't want the baby, fair enough, that's their choice, but why not have it adopted rather than killed?

Why should a term infant lose its life purely because the woman doesn't want it?

So you do think a disabled life isn't as worth defending as a non-disabled one then kate middleton?

That's interesting (and repellent).

It would indeed be repellant if I had said, hinted, or insinuated that.

I think when you have to make things up christina then it is time to bow out, like you claimed you would several posts ago.

I've already answered that point but I'll answer it again (and incidentally I don't make the law, you know, so why you are attacking me over a law I did not make I don't know.)

A disabled life may be believed by the parents to be better terminated to minimise the suffering. Many conditions are terminal, and may lead to a baby being born in discomfort and pain.

I do not believe ending the life of a healthy foetus who could survive independently of the womb to fall into the category of minimising suffering.

Christina because it's a safeguarding concern.

I'm pro choice to 24 weeks. Then it's a viable baby. Killing it inside you is as bad as after it passed down the birth canal. The brain is the same.

It's all our duty to safeguard vulnerable persons.

But you have said that katemiddleton. You have said exactly that.

Right here:-

"Having an abortion is currently illegal past 24 weeks unless in clearly defined circumstances, and rightly so IMO."

So it's morally fine to you for a mother to decide to abort a foetus who would (probably) be born disabled, but not one who would (probably) not be.

So a life affected by disability is okay to be terminated, but not one that (may) not be.

I haven't made that up. You clearly said that you agree with the current legal situation in it being lawful to terminate a pregnancy where the foetus is likely to have severe disabilities post 24 weeks, but not where disability isn't indicated in pregnancy (although no guarantee that the baby will be born healthy).

I appreciate that you may not have intentionally made this distinction, but your statements do make it, whether you'd though it through or not.

"
Have you actually engaged at all with the reasons that women approach BPAS for late abortions? Or what the women who have emerged from domestic abuse relationships have said on this thread? Or women who have carried a foetus that they know will die shortly after birth?"

British law allows for late abortion for severe abnormalities. It's possible to get a late abortion if the foetus stands little chance of survival.

As far as women who want an abortion for social reasons a line has to be drawn somewhere. That line is currently at 24 weeks. You can make all the sob stories you like, but nothing justifies killing a healthy foetus late in pregnancy unless the mother's life is endangered. Even then the aim should be to keep everyone alive.

I feel British abortion law is fine had it is. Possibly it should be easier to get an abortion in the first 12 weeks with needing two doctors. At the moment late term abortion is available in exceptional circumstances.