Royal College of Midwives backs abolition of abortion law that could see women terminate unborn child at any point

[ThatsMyStapler]

Surely the majority of people needing/wanting a medical abortion do so for very good reasons, and also as quickly as is possible.

Royal College of Midwives backs abolition of abortion law that could see women terminate unborn child at any point

Telegraph Link

he Royal College of Midwives (RCM) is facing criticism after calling for abortion to be decriminalised, without consulting its members on the issue.
The union, which represents almost 30,000 midwives and health workers, has said it gives its “full support” to the British Pregnancy Advisory Service (BPAS), the UK’s biggest abortion provider, in its campaign for abortion to be removed from criminal law.
Prof Cathy Warwick, chief executive of the RCM, is also chairman of the board of trustees of BPAS.
It is currently against the law for women to terminate a foetus after 24 weeks unless there is a medical reason to do so, while abortions earlier in a pregnancy are only legal if two doctors agree to it.
But the RCM is backing calls for the legal limits to be scrapped and abortion to instead be regulated in the same way as other medical procedures, at the discretion of doctors.

There is a petition to stop this, and they say;

"Your campaign is severely out of touch with what women actually think and want. A ComRes poll in March 2014 found that 88% of women favoured a total and explicit ban on sex-selective abortion, whilst another in October that year registered a similar figure of 85%. The March poll also found 92% of women agreeing that a woman requesting an abortion should always be seen in person by a qualified doctor. Whilst in 2006, a Guardian / MORI poll found that 47% of women wanted a reduction in the upper time limit, a 2012 Angus Reid poll found this number had increased to 59% of women."

The difference between having an abortion, even though the foetus is viable, and being forced to give birth can have huge implications.

Until recently I lived in a women's refuge, approximately 50% of us were pregnant when we arrived there.

We all made different choices for different reasons, however the one consistent thing was the men in there using the pregnancy to control the women, if women are forced to birth then they are forced to have ties with these men forever.

I believe as early as possible as late as necessary and fully support women's rights to bodily autonomy.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist

I don't see why gonetoseeamanaboutadog is a woman "dislker" just because they happen to oppose abortion

I think its a necessary evil, but pretty fucking vile as a notion and I think that as a civilised society we should not shy away from being honest about it

Its no different to how we don't want to really own up to what goes on ain mass meat production- late abortions are also pretty nasty

I have had an abortion by the way.

I hate the way that anyone who has an opinion against it gets branded this way- its shabby

It's the same old story, decriminalizing abortions results in better outcomes for women You have to ask, why are some people so keen to inflict unnecessary suffering on women?

Elsa - with a late abortion a woman has to birth anyway. If she chooses to she can give that child up to be cared for by others which will remove the link to an abusive man.

I suppose I'm thinking of a system where a woman can choose "termination of pregnancy" and cut all ties with the baby. Perhaps even so the mother's name is not recorded with the child so there is no danger of that child attempting to contact the mother later on. Perhaps even to the point that the woman does not need to know if the baby lives or dies (as that decision would lie with a doctor).

You have to ask, why are some people so keen to inflict unnecessary suffering on women?

Do we have hordes of women suffering in the UK right now? we have ready access to contraception, the map and abortion within a reasonable limit.

I don't know anyone that is "suffering|" because of the current law

Murder a foetus a human life because of the gender that's utterly disgraceful.
How sad anyone could think that is an option

Futuregadgets

Do you mean that these statements are your opinion?

'A woman has a right to bodily autonomy.
A viable foetus has a right to a chance at life.'

Because the first one is upheld in some circumstances in the UK legal system, but the second one never is.

And you can't legalise the second one and uphold the first one.

Elsa I completely agree with you. Being 'anti late term abortion' from an abstract or moral perspective completely ignores the reality of women who are in the situation of actually needing one.

stopofucking have you actually read Elsa's post which is immediately above yours?

Yes, there are unfortunately fucking hoards of women suffering in the UK right now. Criminalising them for an unwanted pregnancy adds to their suffering.

The problem with the "induce and adopt" model is, as others have said, it puts the welfare of the baby in direct opposition to that of the mother. Waiting a few weeks would be best for the baby. Being placed with the father or a grandparent would be best for the baby. Expressing some colostrum would be best for the baby - and so on and on until you have a situation in which the woman just can't have the outcome she needs, which is not to have a baby.

Yes you can Christina. The key the second one is the word chance. The foetus gets a chance at life. She didn't say 'the best possible chance' at life.

Christina

This whole debate is opinion.

I don't understand why you think you have to be for or against. It is possible to apply limitations or alter concrete statements.

So if you take "a woman has autonomy" and "a fetus has a right to life", they are opposed. But "a viable fetus has a right to a chance of life" doesn't stop the woman from having autonomy and doesn't automatically kill something that may be able to survive.

I believe as early as possible as late as necessary and fully support women's rights to bodily autonomy.

Yes, yes, yes.

As regards the criminal status: Criminalising something is only justified if there is an aim of deterrence and/or punishment.

As regards deterrence, I cannot believe that any of the poor sods women who have had to consider late abortion, for whatever reason, have been influenced one whit by the criminal status.

As regards punishment, a late abortion must be a truly horrible experience in itself so I can't see that there is any need for additional punishment by criminalising.

Jilly that goes for any adoption. No one who adopts is forced to express colostrum or give the baby to family members.

Sorry, who gives their baby up for adoption. Not adopts.

"there are unfortunately fucking hoards of women suffering in the UK right now. "

Yet other people on the thread are saying that late term abortions would never/very very rarely ever happen if the law was changed. Which is it?

its a very tricky one, and no I missed that post from Elsa thanks for pointing it out.

I am going to bow out now, I know what I think/believe - and I don't think there is anything to be gained whatsoever from airing it

Oh and to the people arguing for giving birth at 24, 25, 26 weeks: have any of you ever seen a very premature baby in the flesh? Ever looked after one? Looked at the statistics for their chances of being healthy?

Who is going to look after all these unwanted, very premature, likely to have severe health conditions babies? And who is going to pay for their medical care, in NICU and beyond?

"Viable" does not mean "ready to come out".

Jilly - there would have to be legislation to make sure a woman's choice to terminate a pregnancy is where her responsibility ends. I think as well there would have to be a system where it's recorded in her records as "termination of pregnancy". If her hypothetical abusive ex turns up at the hospital saying "where's my baby" the answer should be "the pregnancy was terminated".

have any of you ever seen a very premature baby in the flesh? Ever looked after one? Looked at the statistics for their chances of being healthy?

Yes I have. My son was in NICU. He was next to a 24 week baby.

That baby deserves a chance.

Minipie - that's why I think whether the termination of the pregnancy should be abortion or induction should lie with doctors who can act impartially in the interests of the baby. It may well be that 26wks, 28wks, 30wks, whatever ends in abortion if that is genuinely the best outcome.

Yes, minipie, I have.

How many post-24 week inductions of healthy foetuses do you think there would be? People always seem to argue that hardly any women would ever have late term abortions but yet somehow, if it was induction instead, there would be huge numbers of unwanted babies being induced.

Surely all mentally ill people should get the help and support they need? I dread to think how many people are in prison because they've committed crimes where their mental health is a factor.

Well yes. But that's for another thread isn't it? Its something we have to work on step by step.

A woman needing to terminate her pregnancy late on needs help whether the foetus/baby is born dead or alive. Or is providing an abortion going to be a magic wand to solve her problems?

It could be a start, if it means she is not giving birth to the child of her violent and abusive husband and she no longer has to have any contact with him in the future.

There were 184,571 abortions in England and Wales in 2014.
Only 211 of them were post 24 weeks. 202 of those were for congenital malformations.
46 of them were over 32 weeks. All 46 were for congenital malformations.
So what makes people believe that women would be rushing to abort foetuses that could survive?

So the law of 24 weeks was 'over ruled' in 9 cases for mental health. And based on the judgment of doctors there were no abortions on mental health grounds after 32 weeks.

To be honest there is a whacking great hole in all maternity care when it comes to maternal health though. God knows how many women are falling through the net in one way or another.

Acknowledging that we HAVE A PROBLEM ACROSS THE BOARD with maternal mental health service and the COMPLETE LACK OF RECOGNITION of problems needs to be done. If we are honest about this, this may well mean an abortion in a few cases.

The National Maternity Review pointed out the following.
Maternal mortality has declined progressively over time, to a level of nine deaths per 100,000 maternities in the UK in 2011-13.26 This number of deaths is too low for variation between different services to be meaningful; however the recent MBRRACE-UK Confidential Enquiry into maternal death found that about half of deaths would have had a different outcome with better care. Late maternal mortality in the period 2011-13 was 14 per 100,000 maternities. Notably, 23% of these deaths were from mental health related causes, with one in seven dying through suicide.

Mental health problems are relatively common at a time of significant change in life. Depression and anxiety affect 15-20% of women in the first year after childbirth, but about half of all cases of perinatal depression and anxiety go undetected. Almost one in five women said that they had not been asked about their emotional and mental health state at the time of booking, or about past mental health problems and family history. Many of those with mental health problems that are detected do not receive evidence-based treatment. There is a large geographical variation in service provision: an estimated 40% of women in England lack access to specialist perinatal mental health services. Given the contribution of mental health causes to late maternal mortality, this is a significant concern, as also set out in NHS England’s recently published Mental Health Taskforce report.

Further more, a report in Oct 2014 by the London School of Economic and Centre for Mental Health called ‘The costs of perinatal mental health problems’ found,

The costs of perinatal mental health problems’ finds that:
• Perinatal depression, anxiety and psychosis together carry a total long-term cost to society of about £8.1 billion for each one-year cohort of births in the UK.
• Nearly three-quarters (72%) of this cost relates to adverse impacts on the child rather than the mother.
• Over a fifth of total costs (£1.7 billion) are borne by the public sector, with the bulk of these falling on the NHS and social services (£1.2 billion).
• Other costs include loss of earnings/impact on someone’s ability to work and quality of life affects.

There is clear guidance from the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) and other national bodies on the treatment of mental illness during and after pregnancy. Yet the current provision is best described as patchy, with significant variations in coverage around the country:
• About half of all cases of perinatal depression and anxiety go undetected and many of those which are detected fail to receive evidence-based forms of treatment.
• Specialist perinatal mental health services are needed for women with complex or severe conditions, but less than 15% of localities provide these at the full level recommended in national guidance and more than 40% provide no service at all.

And worst of all:
The NHS would need to spend just £337 million a year to bring perinatal mental health care up to the level recommended in national guidance.

I don't think its just an abortion issue this one, but a total and utter lack of awareness, recognition and systematic and institutionalised disregard for maternal mental health.

But yes, we could start recognising this, by acknowledging that some women who need help are actually being treated like criminals.