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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To send DS to school without a snack?

120 replies

Frimplepants · 11/05/2016 07:00

They all sit and eat their snack at morning break. DS has to leave the house in 3 minutes. He was first asked 42 minutes ago to get dressed. He has been asked/told several times since and told to come and present himself to me fully dressed and then I will make his snack.

He is still in pyjamas. Would it be totally wrong to send him today with just his water bottle?

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Schwabischeweihnachtskanne · 12/05/2016 08:06

Cat in Germany at any rate (in my experience I must add as variations between state and area are as enormous as international variations in a lot of cases) teachers do not see anything that goes on outside the classroom as anything to do with them. The role of teacher is narrower in that sense. It's not specific to ASD. The automatic place the German parents I know seek help for behaviour if necessary is the paediatrician (every child has one) orschool ppsychologist, whom parents can contact directly. The class teacher is not the same sort of resource they might be in the UK - they only teach the curriculum generally. Different system, different expectations.

There is still a strong special school system here but the flip side is no TA support at all in schools, so it can be hard for children with asd or adhd in mainstream.

In wider society there seems to be some understanding of autism but there Ispprobably a lot further to go than in the UK (due probably in part to the school system leading kids to mix less with kids with any SN not manageableIin a one teacher to 20+ kids classroom).

Frimplepants · 12/05/2016 08:29

It's changing schwab and part of the problem is that his teacher has been teaching at this school for 35+ years. As far as she is concerned he should be in special school, hence ignores him. As far as psychologist is concerned, he has no right to a place in special school and countersigned an order for him to have 4hours TA per week. 5-10 years ago he wouldn't have been allowed in school.
Only classroom stuff is seen as her responsibility, him being teased/pushed around by kids whilst waiting outside the classroom door for the bell to go has nothing to do with her. (One of the reasons I send him on such a tight schedule. It was much harder to get him to go when I was sending him in plenty of time as the other kids were picking on him.)
I don't think it's specific to this school, have heard horror stories! But the younger teachers here are much more open to acceptance, both of that and bilingualism. His teacher informed me I should stop speaking English to the children and only speak my (rather poor) German Hmm

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Mov1ngOn · 12/05/2016 08:33

Wow I'd love to know more about half day school systems (would be amazing as a teacher to have the afternoon to plan!) is a working week still 9-5 ish for adults? Does it usually require an adult to be home so the kid isn't on their own? Does it work? Sounds like a whole afternoon for sport and playing and being a kid...

Frimplepants · 12/05/2016 08:41

9-5? Don't you mean 8-6? First year here is 4 mornings 815-1145, second five mornings + 1 afternoon 1330-1515, home at lunch time. For us it's unworkable and unpayable to use the club and pay full time creche fees. (DC don't start until they have turned 4). Unless you have family who can take over some childcare, someone has to be home.

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Schwabischeweihnachtskanne · 12/05/2016 08:46

Oh god one of those Frimple - nobody has ever dared tell me to speak German to my kids but I did have one awful teacher refuse to engage with me when I went in to ask help DS remember what the homework was in the first weeks when they weren't meant to be able to write it down. I dared suggest she photocopy a sheet with a one line note of what homework was and became her mortal enemy for doing so (apparently ds1 was the only 6 year old she'd ever taught not to correctly memorise not only roughly what the homework was but what coloured pencil crayon to use for what, and whether today they were to draw pictures or to cut them out of magazines etc) Hmm She, of course, was far too busy to write the hhomework down and give each child a photocopy just for the first term, after which I knew (as he is DC2) they'd be expected to copy the homework from the board. After I made my outrageous request that teacher stood and looked out of the window with her back to me whilst drinking tea and talked to my reflection in the window instead of me Shock. Thankfully that unpleasant creature went off long term sick and ds has had a much more sensible teacher ever since, and all DD's teachers have been fine (though her secondary English teacher refuses to speak English to me... DD says she's scared of me because dd told her I'm an English teacher too :o ... She always gives DD's 1s so I can't complain really. .. :o )

Good luck with your fossil teacher and your morning routine! Flowers

Schwabischeweihnachtskanne · 12/05/2016 09:06

Mov1ng on this is where the different states being different kicks in.

Where I live kids start school the September of or following their 6th birthday (with some exceptions).

Before that they go to Kindergarten from the month they turn 3 until they start school (roughly 3-6 but we are one of the few states left where it can legally happen that some kids turn 7 while still at Kindergarten).

Kindergarten is fairly affordable as it is heavily subsidised (regardless of parental income although those on the highest level of benefits get it free) - we pay €108 per month. My DC3 has a place from 7am - 3pm for that money.

I work 6am - 2pm 2 days a week (but sometimes those days are weekends, when DH is home) and also a separate morning and two evenings (I have two totally unconnected jobs).

DH works an office job but with relatively flexible start and finish times - he usually works 7am - 4pm, but if I am working I need to leave the house at 5:30am so he takes DC3 to Kindergarten (drops him off as the doors open at 7am) and then works 8-5.

There is afternoon club at primary school which costs more than Kindergarten does - we pay €150 per month for one child to attend 3 days a week from the finish of school until 3pm so that I can work.

My nearly 9 year old's school day is 8am - 11:20 on Monday, 8am - 12:15 Tuesday, Thursday and Friday and 8am - 1pm on Wednesdays. He goes to afternoon club Monday to Wednesday til 3pm as above.

It is perfectly normal and acceptable for children over 10 to be home alone in the afternoons, but many schools have an "open" afternoon club now (a newish thing). DD's school has one and the kids can go into town for lunch if they want but if they are signed up they have to register back into the school at 1:30pm and then do supervised homework (with help available) and then there are art clubs, sport clubs, and tuition in English, German and Maths available. Its run by a charity, although some teachers are employed to help there as a second job, other employees of the chub are youth workers and unqualified helpers. DD goes to that club 2 days a week atm because I was worried my German wouldn't be up to helping her with secondary homework, but actually she is very self sufficient and well above average at German, so she won't need to go next year - she wants to come home on her own if I am at work and I trust her.

DD is at secondary and her school day is 7:30am - 12:30. Ironically (or not) only the type of secondary school for the least academic has afternoon classes here (they have an 8am - 3pm school day with no homework). The secondary children go to depends on their grades at the end of primary (though there is a lot of room to change later, plus lots of kids get the grades for grammar school but choose not to go around here - in cities it is the opposite and children are pushed, tutored and coached to within an inch of their lives to get into grammar school). Here grammar school and Realschule (the middle of the range secondary) don't have afternoon classes unless you choose the special music stream, which has an afternoon music class).

Mov1ngOn · 12/05/2016 09:12

Wow school is so much shorter all through the. Over here. Do they do less subjects (less sport/drama/art) or are they just more efficient. Teaching must be so much easier...

Mov1ngOn · 12/05/2016 09:13

And I can't imagine a 6 year old not writing. We do push academics so early here. 6 year old about to sit written comprehension tests about adverbs etc vs just starting school...

Schwabischeweihnachtskanne · 12/05/2016 09:16

But yes the school system does largely assume a parent home in the day - teachers have day time office hours and it is largely impossible to see them as a parent at other times.

I don't know a single family where both parents work full time office hours - that would require a nanny or a very, very helpful non working grandparent. Additionally most families locally have a lot of local extended family who are very heavily involved in child care.

I'd say its normal for the mother to stay at home til the youngest child is 3 - mothers get 3 years protected maternity leave although only the first year is paid. My youngest is 5 and my eldest 11 - I'd say 90% of mothers work part time once their youngest is about 7, though a lot stay at home right through the Kindergarten years and send the children core hours only (8:30-12) as sending children to Kindergarten full days is largely considered not in the child's best interest. I did that and just worked evenings when my older 2 were at Kindergarten, but had lost the full on Mother as job motivation a bit by the time poor old DC3 was settled at Kindergarten and got the daytime job and increased his hours when he was 4 :o I only send him 8:30- 1 when I'm not working though as the full 7-3 he does on my work days is a bloody long day for a 5 yo IMO

Schwabischeweihnachtskanne · 12/05/2016 09:20

Mov1ing school isn't the only place kids learn Wink My DD could read and write when she was 3, and my 5 year old has taught himself to read and write by playing SIMS Blush

Starting early doesn't help much IMO - my nearly 9 year old didn't write a letter before he was 6 and could only write his own name before starting school but he's doing just as well as his big sister who was writing her own story blog in two languages at 5 was at his age :o

If they start learning to read and write at 6/7 they learn much, much faster than if they learn at 4 - they produce reams of very pretty joined up writing in fountain pen after 12-18 months at school :o

Mov1ngOn · 12/05/2016 09:25

Oh I completely agree! (I think we've got it wrong over here and flit with homeschooling until I realise I will need to work at some point!). The op mentioned children couldn't be expected to write at 6 and I was comparing with this govts expectation they complete complex comprehension tests here at that age. It's an unbelievable difference in expectation.

I completely believe kids that start to read later may well make as much progress, and have avoided slogging by through 2 years of daily literacy lessons.

Mov1ngOn · 12/05/2016 09:26

A child who could only write their own name at 6 would be considered incredibly behind here with all sorts of interventions. They'd completely "fail" their sats as they wouldn't be able to sit them. Yet your case shows how ridiculous this is. Sigh.

Mov1ngOn · 12/05/2016 09:28

Oh and a society where it's not expected both parents work full-time.... Even reading mumsnet you can see how (usually women) who don't work full time are often thought not to be pulling weight/protecting future/101 other rude things about part time or sahm. We have it so wrong.

my2bundles · 12/05/2016 09:57

I also have a child on the spectrum so Zi know how frustrating this can be. Have you tried a picture timetable for dressing? The picture promots really helped my child. We had a Velcro board with pictures of her clothes on in the order dye needed to put them on, once she put an item on she posted that picture on a special box. The picture prompts kept her on task.

Schwabischeweihnachtskanne · 12/05/2016 09:59

I love the later age kids start school here, and I love Kindergarten (all my kids have attended the same one, so I've had a child at this Kindergarten without any break since 2008 and know all the staff well - I can't fault them and the kids are so happy there, and learn so much.

What they learn is not academic though, but they have a project day every week where they can choose what to do - they can focus on the term's topic, which is famous artists this term, or they can have a story morning where the teacher reads to them and they do role play and drawing etc. based around the story, or they can spend the day hiking and building dens in the forest, visiting bee hives with a bee keeper, spotting wild deer and other wildlife, leaning the names of trees and which wild plants are good for what... On other days they do a lot of Montessori style learning with learning stations around the room and a degree of free choice and a degree of being gently directed towards an activity - things like 3D puzzles and building and board games and pin boards and stuff. There is also always a drawing table and a building corner and a doll corner and a "cuddly" corner with a sofa, big floor cushions and books.

They have a wonderful huge garden which they are out in in all weather for at least an hour, and often all day in good weather, with trees they are allowed to climb and climbing frames and play houses and 3 big shaded sand pits, and in summer they switch the big old fashioned water pump on and build rivers and pools.

They do loads of outings too - to farms to learn about where food comes from, and to museums and to watch plays and puppet shows and all sorts, and they do a residential trip during their last year of Kindergarten for 3 nights! Shock

I have massive reservations about the actual school system after the golden Kindergarten years though, to bring things back around to Frimble's situation - school is very one size fits, all work at the same speed, chalk and talk, desks in rows... and then they separate the children out by academic ability so bloody young - DD was only 9 when the grades dictating which schools were open to her were finalised (she did just scrape the grades for grammar but she's a stress head so we didn't send her there... which is another thing I hate - that you have to make that decision for your kid at age 9 or 10... Though I do understand now that there is a lot more fluidity and flexibility in the system to change schools than I initially thought, it still sets them on a path...)

They also get an awful lot of homework - I think a lot of UK parents would have the shock of their lives - daily homework from the first day of school, and no way on earth you can just say your kid isn't doing it because you don't believe in it unless you want them to fall ridiculously far behind very fast and get in a world of trouble at school.

Teachers here also have far too much power to inflict their sometimes odd ball opinions on their charges, and are a left to be dictators of their own little fifedoms a bit too much if they are one of the occasional fruitloops... as long as they pass their classes along at the right average level across the board they seem to be fairly free to do as they please once fully qualified, which means the occasional older teachers who have been in one job for 30 years in backwater village schools get away with all sorts of old fashioned practice and playing very blatant favourites etc.

Frimplepants · 12/05/2016 10:11

Ah yes, mov1ng but it's also a world where the children play "who's scared of the black man?" in their gym lessons. Where the bank manager won't deal with you, or if you give him an instruction, calls your husband to check it's ok Hmm I can see it's a great system for some children Schwab but then some, like DS, just end up day in day out in the corner with the building/3D puzzles. I am dreading the homework when he starts school... Definitely the case of backwater village here. And not so much the case of favourites as ones she picks on and actively dislikes.

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Schwabischeweihnachtskanne · 12/05/2016 10:23

I've never had any issues with the bank manager - actually they treat me like a bit of a celebrity in the bank and I don't actually even have an account there, only the kids do... they all chorus hello Frau XXX and bend the rules for me, wave charges, do things you are meant to have to have an account there to do...

Frimble I totally sympathise - after a good experience of the first years of primary with DD, and DS1 having a brilliant time at Kindergarten where the staff totally "got" him (144cm tall nearly 9 year old says he'd like to go back to Kindergarten from time to time), I was shocked when DS1's first teacher clearly disliked him (she told him off for sweating among other things... she told me he was the only child in the class not to be able to remember what homework was, the most disorganised, that she didn't like sweaty children - clearly she didn't realise mothers talk to each other and I'd know some of the other mothers in his class since before he was born as their older children were my older child's friends, at least half the class were having the homework and organisation problems) We were just lucky that she left long term sick and he got a different teacher (who tbh probably plays favourites too but is a mum of 4 grown up boys and says DS1 reminds him of her eldest Blush )

Ds1's saving has been football - because he has been on the local football Verein since he was 4 and was moved up an age band to be goal keeper for the under 9s when he was 6 (due to being big for his age and willing to be a goal keeper mainly) he was very much "in" with the sporty older boys when he started school - this meant that he had a leg up socially.

He came home from school saying he hated it even after the second day, and that remained his attitude til a few months after the first teacher left - but luckily the school day is short so it didn't dominate his life, plus before school and break times and later after school club were all happy football dominated times...

I absolutely sympathise (being unsporty myself) that if a child doesn't get on with peers and has bad luck in the teacher draw it is a shitty system :(

Schwabischeweihnachtskanne · 12/05/2016 10:24

(celebrity because of being That English Woman and therefore a novelty item not for any personal reason)

Schwabischeweihnachtskanne · 12/05/2016 10:31

Frimple the Schwarzen Man is the boggie man not a human male with black skin. Though I agree casual racism is rife I don't actually think that is what that game is about!

Schwabischeweihnachtskanne · 12/05/2016 10:57

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogeyman

"Germany – The Bogeyman is known as Der schwarze Mann (the black man). "Schwarz" does not refer to the colour of his skin (most Germans had never met a real black person during the time these legends developed) but to his preference for hiding in dark places, like the closet, under the bed of children or in forests at night. There is also an active game for little children which is called Wer hat Angst vorm schwarzen Mann? (Who is afraid of the black man?) or an old traditional folk song Es tanzt ein Bi-Ba-Butzemann in unserm Haus herum (A Bi-Ba-Bogeyman dances around in our house)."

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