WIBU in my reaction?

[MrsDeathOfRats]

H's family live in Europe. He hasn't seen them in years due to him needing a visa (he's from Middle East) and he is lazy about that sort of stuff.

Anyway, a while back we had a row about him getting a European visa. I can't quite recall exactly what started it but he was very defensive about it and something didn't feel right to me. He was absolutely insistent he wanted the visa incase we went away as a family. (He doesn't need one of he travels with me but was also insistent that it was safer if he had one himself).

He complains endlessly (really really endlessly) about money. How we don't have any. He always says 'can't afford it' whenever I want to do anything as a family and we won't be having a holiday this year due to money.

So, fast forward to today:
He came in from work and announced he is going to visit his family at the end of the month. He is going alone and will be taking the car.

By 'the car' he means the family and not his car which he uses purely for work. It is probably not really road legal (has problems) and he doesn't trust it to go all the way to France and back. And I would never put the kids in it. But it's his car so I don't get involved in him driving it to work etc.

I may have over reacted but it was be way he spoke to me. He just informed me it was happening that we aren't all going, when he is going and he's taking the car. There was no discussion. No conversation. Nothing.
Topped off by the real reason for the visa coming out - which I have no issue with but why lie in an earlier argument?

Basically I wasn't impressed. I didn't about swear or have a go at him but he could see I wasn't happy. It has scuppered plans I had already made for the same dates and I am not happy about him taking the car.
He saw this and it escalated very quickly into a full on argument (no DC present) where he was ranting and raving that I am trying to control him and bully him and he has every right to just tell me and take the car as he paid for half of it and I use it all the time.

Do you really think he would be interested in taking the DC? He doesn't seem that bothered about them!

Yes he has a claim on the flat because you are married but you should not be forced to buy him out until the youngest is 18 - possibly older due the special needs issue?

Sadly he sounds like a very typical Algerian Male there have been a few other cases like this on MN

X-posts. Good news re the flat!!!

If he hasn't bought the car off you, you can drive it away to your Mums,

The WhatsApp is all about organising this trip, & who with, either taking others with him, or bringing people or something back ?. My immediate reaction was some kind of trafficking, human, drug or other-- ? so yes if he goes in your car, disown it.

How do you disown a car?
I've not heard of this and I've worked within he motor industry for 8 years

I'd definitely tell the home office what you've done.

Personally I can't help wondering if a wife is being lined up for him back home

I'd say "another wife" except that in some circles - at least IME - an English spouse tends not to be regarded as any kind of wife at all

I read back through this thread and it has struck me that I'm afraid of him.
Not because I think he would be violent, but like everyone is saying 'jut don't give him the car' and I'm like 'but if I don't then there will be hell to pay' which shouldn't matter as I'm going to divorce him but I'm pandering to him cos I'm afraid of him.

I jut never really realised. I didn't sleep much last night as my mind just wouldn't stop spinning. I'm at my mums with the DC and I just feel a total mess right now. But a together sort of mess.

I feel really stupid. Humiliated in a way.

I don't want to antagonise the situation but I could... Change the locks while he is away on his jolly and bag up all his stuff.
He has no legal right to be within the flat.

Would this just be a dick move on my part?

I'd certainly check whether you're correct on the legalities, but if that really is the case it sounds to me like a sensible option. He's not going to like anything you do, but since he's no longer even pretending to behave decently, why put yourself through it any longer?

And I absolutely agree with the PP to make sure you tell the immigration people about the situation

I think the situation is that if he isn't on the tenancy then you can, but I'd definitely do some research first. Perhaps the housing office at the council would be able to tell you?

If he comes back from this trip do you want him to end up in your flat again? Would you be able to keep him out just by saying 'I'm divorcing you and I don't want you here anymore'. Would he accept that and find somewhere else or try and remain in the flat?

If you think it might be harder to get him to go then changing locks and getting his stuff out while he is away seems more practical, At least then you know he can't let himself in or make excuses to keep returning under the pretence of collecting his stuff. It may antagonise him but at least he'd be out of your flat.

Hard to say what you should do as you know him best and how he is likely to react to this.

Do you think you might be ready to tell him you are divorcing him before he leaves on this trip? If so then it might be an idea to say 'don't expect to come back here, I'll have changed the locks etc'. Then it won't be a surprise to him when he returns.

could one possibility be that he wants to take the children in the car and not come back ?

Please make sure you are one step ahead of him re the children - make sure the school is aware - take legal action now to protect them and make physical plans so he can't grab and run

"My mum has said she will come collect me and DC at least the day before he goes away and we will stay with her and she will then take us home Sunday evening. "
She only needs to collect you if you are allowing him to take your car. I'm pretty certain that he will NOT have given the money to you for the car, so why would you let him take it?? I would drive to your mother's (or visit another relative who lives a long, long way away) and just keep the car out of his hands. It's your's, he can use his own car. Or hire one. Or take the train. Or fly. He does not need your car, he wants it. And maybe he wants it for a purpose and maybe he wants it just to piss you off. Doesn't matter. What matters is - what do you want?

Ok, big update today.

I am shaking as I write this.

I have bought a new car. But can't collect it til tomorrow. It is near my mums house.
I (and DC) are staying at mums house and I had planned to go home tomorrow. But with this buying new car etc I decided to go home Monday morning and drop Dd at nursery. But this does mean that STBXH doesn't get to see the DC all weekend.
Anyway, I informed him of this and he started calling.
First conversation he started shouting so I hung up.
Next - more shouting and calling me a liar. So I hung up again.
Next - he said 'do I judge to see my fucking children' but he said it in a stupid argumentative way and really nasty so I hung up.
Next - he demanded I return the DC tonight. Just kept repeating himself over and over. Telling me I'm using the kids against him.
Saying whatever thing I had on in the afternoon was shit and not his problem (he doesn't know about the new car yet) and he just repeated himself over and over. I continued to say there was no way I was bringing them home tonight. They are in pj's already and Dd is falling asleep watching iggle piggle so I'm not driving for 1 hour to get home when they will both sleep in the car and wake up tired and grumpy at home (and cos he is out playing football now anyway!!)
He ended the conversation by saying 'I'm going to hang up but I really really hope you bring them tonight as I've asked you too'
I said 'ok I've heard what you have said' and hung up.

I've sent him a message saying I'm prepared to return them in the morning and come back to sort out my thing. But only if he doesn't have football in the morning (which he usually does every Saturday night and Sunday morning) as I will need to drop them off and then come sort out my stuff so I can't stay at home to look after them. Otherwise they will come back with me when I come back.

I have all passports etc here at mums but I also don't think he is likely to abduct them. He just kept going on about it being his only day off and he wants to see them

Personally I would be playing the longer game.

You want to split, he is going away soon. Whilst he is away you can throw him out and legally change the locks.

If you get some £ off him towards one of the cars that is a bonus.

He is legally entitled to half the value of the marital assets - ie 50% of the value of all the cars regardless of who owns him.

Stay where you are. Don't take them back tomorrow. If you do you've given in to his shouting etc.

when is this trip ?
Does he usually play with the kids much? it doesn't sound like it. sound like he is out playing football
Don't go back, he is off on a trip without any consultation with you after all !

Only you know if he is likely to abduct, but clearly your marriage has broken down, He may just want to leave go back to France/Algeria, & start a new life there with his family, taking his son. although some girls have value as you can sell them
Is he a practising muslim ? I'd just be terrified of some kind of indoctrination.

I think you need to ring Shelter on Monday morning england.shelter.org.uk and seek proper advice on his legal right to remain.

I don't for one minute believe you or the police could force him to leave (or change the locks and deny him entry) without a legal eviction process and a notice period. You can't even give notice on your tenancy without notifying your husband/civil partner (unless I read the website incorrectly).

I just drove my new car home!!
He can stick that in his pipe and smoke it.
Once he pays me he can have his beloved car!
(He is clearly stunned. He obviously believed I wouldn't go through with it!!)

I will contact shelter and maybe CAB about my right.

I am filing for divorce so then once we are divorced he would have to move out?

I'm not an expert but on this citizen's advice page, that's the impression I get. Unless his behaviour become unreasonable of course. It does say something about being able to go to court and they can force him to move out (and force you to let him back in) while you remain married.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/relationships/relationship-problems/relationship-breakdown-and-housing/if-you-re-married-or-in-a-civil-partnership-relationship-breakdown-and-housing/if-you-re-married-or-in-a-civil-partnership-and-you-rent-your-home-relationship-breakdown-and-housing/relationship-breakdown-and-housing-rights-to-stay-if-your-spouse-or-civil-partner-rents-the-home/

Ok, so I just handed him a letter stating I am going to divorce him. He was a bit shell shocked. And said
^'I can't believe your doing this. Over a trip to France! I was gonna talk to you today and ask you and the kids to come with me'
^
Now I'm not stupid and I don't believe that for a second. He did a lot of telling me how I'm bullying him and I'm getting what I want etc.

He then started saying how he would happily sign it as long as it's honest (the petition that is) and by honest he means if I cite constant arguments, then that's not correct it must read constant arguments started by MrsDeathOfRats.
If I cite
Refusal to seek help with anger issues
That is incorrect and it must read refusal to seek help with anger issues as perceived by MrsDeathOfRats but not by Mr
Etc etc

Essentially he says he is faultless and blameless in this relationship and he will not sign anything to the effect saying he is otherwise.

He also interrogated me about cheating on him. Because that is the only possible reason I could want to leave him. and when I repeatedly said no (which is true. I never have) he just kept asking and assuring me that he would prefer me to be honest even if it hurts him. And then called me a coward for not admitting to it.

He then started telling me how he will pay the maintenance etc as he isn't going to let his kids eat of bins like animals (he is a tad melodramatic) but he wants to warn me that if he goes to Algeria - which is likely as now he will need to get away from England because of this - then he won't be able to pay.
And life is tough enough so if he meets a new woman and has another family then e won't be able to afford it all....

In some ways I'm so crushed that he jumped to this so so fast. But I think this is a blessing in disguise... I already know he is going to abandon his kids. I can prepare for it cos it's coming. what a cunt though

My (Muslim) exDH did exactly the same thing in regards to my divorce petition. Refused to sign anything unless it stated how totally unreasonable I had been to him throughout our marriage (by expecting him not to cheat constantly and to actually financially support our DC's)

if he goes to Algeria - which is likely as now he will need to get away from England - then he won't be able to pay ... if he meets a new woman and has another family then he won't be able to afford it all

I'm afraid that sounds to me like what I thought - another wife lined up

Isn't there a long-running MN thread for wives of North African men? I think there is MrsRats, it's not pretty.

I might sound like a massive fucking racist for saying this, BUT, (and there's no but really), I haven't know (and I've known a few) ONE, marriage , that's been successful for the woman concerned between a first generation North African/Middle Eastern man.

I haven't. And I get very angry with my friends when they're 'suddenly' in relationships like this, because it always happens quickly and it's love, and EVERY SINGLE TIME, they get fucked over.

Every. Single. Fucking. Time.

And it seems like there's a mental block, because everyone is so massively racist, what everyone forgets is that MEN, from these countries have actually been schooled in a horrid way against women, if they are first generation.

It;s not a competition as to how liberal we can be.

It's an illustration of what happens if we don;t check our fucking BRAIN, rather than our privilege.

Really, I spent three years with a second generation Ugandan Pakistani, we split up because we were too young, and for no other reason, there was no cultural shite involved.

There is NO FUCKING REASON for men of whatever religion or culture to demean or denigrate.

Hound, I know of lots of successful marriages and lots of failed marriages. To generalise, the successful ones are usually where the woman was an expat living in the country and had no intention of returning to uk/us because she wanted to embrace another culture. The unsuccessful ones are where the woman expected the man to come to her "westernised" country, leave behind everything and just adapt himself in a matter of a few years.

And, yeah your post is disgraceful and racist.

Anytime two people from two different countries - even EU countries - try to make a go of it, compromises are required on all sides. Multicultural marriages are incredibly difficult work.