How do you decide between private school or state school?

[Hecegoza]

I'm so torn... There's a lovely prep school, relatively close (15 min drive) and it only has 123 students - from age 1-11. I'd want mine to start at Pre-Reception.

It's very family-like and has great pastoral care (which I think is more important than results, for sure).

It's reasonable price - it's £21 a morning session for Pre-Reception and then £2,900 each term up to Year 6. That includes lunch/swimming, etc.

Then there's an 'Outstanding' state school which is walking distance, it's a lovely newly built building. Then friends he met at school would most likely be in his village too... So that's a bonus, and most likely to go to the same secondary.

I'm struggling to decide if your kids go private, why is that? If state, why did you pick that? I feel they both have good benefits!

I think Privates in the main do have a huge advantage in teacher time. Former colleagues of mine at private schools tend to get more PPA time for smaller classes, and less hoop jumping.

All of the other stuff, the extra curricular you can pay for yourself or find the time to do so. However for many parents the fact that it takes place as part of the wrap around care or in school time is very advantageous because it means that they aren't constrained by time doing running to activities on evenings.

Prep too, if I could nick something from Private schools it would be prep time at the end of the day, actually makes sure the work gets done!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti private school at all.

@lurked
Actually I think that report has been proved wrong. Apparently the authors (presumably not privately educated) got the maths wrong.

universitybusiness.co.uk/Article/hefce-blunder-over-state-vs-private-school-degree-passes

My boy goes private, year 9. My twin girls are at local primary because it is a very good state primary.

Up until 3 years ago we home educated. Then they all started state school. The boy started at the local comp but it was full of riff and he was forever getting bullied. So we took him out and now he goes private, we've never looked back.

Independent schools have lots of advantages already mentioned above. In my opinion state schools seem to have better facilities. By comparison, the Government seem to chuck so much money at state schools, the sports facilities are outstanding, the drama/dance studios are amazing, the IT suites have the latest technology. The teachers kinda let the side down a bit, some are outstanding and full of encouragement and deserve praise but others - well how many times would you get away with phoning in sick with 'stress' in any other job?

If your local primary has great teachers and nice kids, then I'd give it a go, try a year to see how your little one gets on and then decide.

However it also says:

"In both Russell and non-Russell group universities, students from independent schools were less likely to achieve either a first class degree or at least an upper second class degree than students from comprehensive schools with similar prior attainment.”

Its not a criticism of private schools, just I got annoyed with Haricut's " 3 bs and less selective courses" point, cause its not true.

But can you agree this article is a bit confusing on the subject of high-achievers? I'd really like to know if this pattern holds across all groups.

If you are loaded, self entitled, snobbish and want your child to have no concept of the real world then you go private, otherwise it's state.

Loaded maybe (though there are means tested bursaries at most private schools) but the rest is just not necessarily true of all parents who choose private education. I simply don't understand the anger against private schools. It's disproportionate. People who insist it's an unfair advantage are quite happy to buy large houses in safe leafy areas (unfair) close to state school with a nice catchment area (unfair) and pay for ballet/music/drama (unfair) and fill their children's lives with theatre trips, foreign holidays, days out (unfair). Ad infinitum. They wouldn't dream of ensuring their children grew up in a small flat on a run down estate just so they had an equal footing with others.

There are myriad ways in which children are socially privileged over others. It's not fair or right but private education is one of many and the others are never under such attack.

Loaded maybe (though there are means tested bursaries at most private schools) but the rest is just not necessarily true of all parents who choose private education. I simply don't understand the anger against private schools. It's disproportionate. People who insist it's an unfair advantage are quite happy to buy large houses in safe leafy areas (unfair) close to state school with a nice catchment area (unfair) and pay for ballet/music/drama (unfair) and fill their children's lives with theatre trips, foreign holidays, days out (unfair). Ad infinitum. They wouldn't dream of ensuring their children grew up in a small flat on a run down estate just so they had an equal footing with others.

Agreed.

Not getting into generalisations, but here are my thoughts and experience.

Why wouldn't you go to the local state primary? Honestly, I just can't see a single reason not to. A good community primary experience cannot be replicated - the local friends, the sense of being in the heart of something, the walking to school. This becomes more and more important as your children get older. Mine are privileged to be able to walk to school on their own, while friends in private schools are still being ferried there in the car. Mine were/are at a requires improvement primary that has twice as many EAL, FSM, SEN etc so it's not the stereotypical leafy or faith school. I don't know how teachers do it, but the class of 30 doesn't seem to be a problem.

Secondary, I'm more ambivalent. Someone up thread has mentioned how in London the system means that if you're not religious (and to which I'd add musical too) the schools you end up with are disproportionately filled with the harder to teach. I couldn't see the primary school experience being mirrored in the local secondaries - they were in a way less diverse, by which I mean they had far fewer pupils not from difficult home situations.

As a consequence eldest is a selective London private -having done well in entrance tests and now there, not behind academically despite the vast majority never having gone state. The school is great, the facilities, the teachers, the sports blah di blah, but I'm not convinced that the added value really justifies the cost and I feel sad it's not a walkable local option surrounded by our neighbours.

Giraffe, I think the anger comes from sweeping generalisations that all state school children are somehow ferrel, un-academic and have low aspirations. When your experience is the opposite you feel angry, especially when it's your own dcs.

However sweeping generalisations go both ways. I don't believe for one moment that all private school parents are rich, pompous etc. However, I do believe there's a partial snobbery in there though no-one dares admit it.

I'm pretty mc/radio 4 listening/1st honours degree etc and I'll admit I'm quite snobby

"However sweeping generalisations go both ways. I don't believe for one moment that all private school parents are rich, pompous etc. However, I do believe there's a partial snobbery in there though no-one dares admit it."

I have many friends with dc's in private schools and none are snobby or rich. They are all genuinely good people and their dc's are nice.

Don't confuse anger about the unfairness of the system (and anger about the willingness of parents to a) perpetuate it by buying into it and b) justify this unfairness on the moral grounds on the basis that it works for their children) with judgement of people's personalities.

Most people are nice. Most kids are nice. But fairness to children generally doesn't seem to be a principle people hold dear, regardless of the corrosive impact of inequality on social well-being.

But fairness to children generally doesn't seem to be a principle people hold dear, regardless of the corrosive impact of inequality on social well-being.

Minifingerz you yourself said on another thread recently that you couldn't be certain that you'd stand on principle if you had the choice. Where principled people waver, you can be certain it's about the well-being of their children.

"People who insist it's an unfair advantage are quite happy to buy large houses in safe leafy areas (unfair) close to state school with a nice catchment area (unfair) and pay for ballet/music/drama (unfair) and fill their children's lives with theatre trips, foreign holidays, days out (unfair)"

Does it make you feel better to think that?

Even the most leafy comp will still have pupils who are poor and low achieving.

No private schools will.

And most children in state schools, good or otherwise, don't live in massive houses and have multiple foreign holidays.

Why is it ok to have huge, structural inequalities in our education system, when, as you point out, children are already advantaged or disadvantaged by their home environment before they set foot in school?

Why do we tolerate such intense inequality of opportunity for children (in all parts of the education system - selective state schools included?)

I'll tell you why we tolerate it - and that's because inequality of opportunity suits those in this country who are the most politically engaged: middle-class home owners and comfortable renters who have the knowledge to work the state system for their children's advantage or the financial clout to buy their way into a socially, academically and economically exclusive school for their own dc's.

The who system is unfair and wrong so why the complacency?

"you can be certain it's about the well-being of their children."

Yup - those standing at the nice end of life's unfair playing field contemplating the huddled poor at the shit end and feel morally 'off the hook' using this this as a rationale.

It's never enough that your kids already have much more in life's lottery than other children. There is always a reason to compound and reinforce that inequality.

I can see you've deliberately sidestepped the other part of my post.

Some of the comments are ludicrous....

'Loaded ....self entitled and snobbish'

We are none of those and dd certainly isn't and funnily enough the DC in her class don't appear to be either.

Awful sweeping generalisations.

Op I was in a similar position please feel free to PM any questions.

We aren't in London or surrounding counties where Private education seems a different world.

But minifingerz we all make choices on behalf of our DC which we hope will benefit them and which we recognise not all children can access or are able to benefit from. The hatred levelled at private schooling smacks of sour grapes. It's OK to indulge in preferential treatment up to the level which I can afford. But anything above that level is snobbish and obnoxious.

Not necessarily. My DC go to a school that's private because I love the way they teach at that school. It seems to me to be streets ahead of anywhere else. The calm, happy atmosphere, the love of learning, the lack of snobbery are all key attributes in this particular school. Of course that ethos exists in some state schools too and is absent from many private schools. But we looked hard at all schools in the area, state and private, and chose the right one for DC. I know not every one has that option. But not every one has the option to live in a safe warm house, eat fresh, good food, wear clean clothes and so on. Doesn't mean you don't provide these for your DC while wanting and campaigning for greater fairness for all.

Oh well, I stand corrected.

I think the results were as a previous poster said, at 3 As there is no difference, lower down there is. But now there are questions, even over the corrective report so who knows.

Sadly, other research has shown that getting a good degree from a good university is not the equalizer it once was.

I agree notagiraffe

In the circumstances we were in, it made sense. The fact it was private was almost irrelevant. However I do think the state schools sometimes shoot themselves in the foot. I accept it is possibly funding related etc.

Our local one has reduced the length of the school day, removing any time for extra school activities at lunch. Children after school have to go home on buses if they are not in the immediate location, thus removing after school options.

The private school had a range of extra activities at lunch. Including an orchestra. My DD could take part. No orchestra in the state school. The county orchestra met at a location that, unless I have teleportation we could not get. Otherwise I have to find a private one.

There were only 7 people in my year at primary! State.

OP - my daughter went to a private school from Y3- Y6. I thought the small class size (13) sounded great but it actually worked against her socially because the group was just too small and relationships too intense. She was miserable there - did fine academically - but was a square peg in a round hole. We put her back in the state system Y7 and she has been much happier. She's off to Oxford in October so the state system has looked after her well enough.

"Someone up thread has mentioned how in London the system means that if you're not religious (and to which I'd add musical too) the schools you end up with are disproportionately filled with the harder to teach."

Yet London schools out perform ones in the rest of the country. I think this may have been the case years ago, and of course depends on the area, but in my formerly rough and ready area of zone 2 there is plenty of choice.

I'd choose a good state school over a private one. I know that many parents feel they have such a lack of choice in good state schools that they pay to have their children privately educated, but if you have perfectly good (indeed outstanding) state schools nearby I just don't see why you'd choose to spend thousands each year, unless it was a status symbol. We've plenty of good state schools to choose from where I live, but I sympathise with those who don't. I think state schools better prepare children for real life, where everyone has to rub along together whatever their background and family circumstances.

Dd's school is not selective. there certainly are children below age related expectations. As for big house/fancy hols most don't. Visit to family yes. I can't think of many who take a 2 week abroad hol in main summer hols. Several families I know live in multiple generation family set ups.

Small private schools provide a market for children who have additional needs but don't qualify for support. My dd has a significant physical disability. I filled in all the forms, had meetings with la and was told no help she will manage. I didn't want her to have to manage. 2 other kids in her class also have physical issues. I can see there are others in school who need a bit of help and attention. The school can cater for that due to small size and class teacher and ta set up in each class.

Rubbish that private schools don't have poor performing children. It completely depends on the school.

Also - mine all have substantial bursaries. We are not loaded and cannot afford the trimmings. We are far from alone in this. There are some Range Rovers with personalised plates in the car park, but a far greater proportion of beaten up old people carriers.

The types of sacrifices made are things like cars, holidays, eating out as a family, no extravagant birthday parties or presents, watching the food shop very closely, only one pair of shoes per child, no new clothes unless absolutely necessary.

They've had no bullying nor do they feel deprived or missing out, I asked my 12 year old about this and lots of children in her school are in a similar position. She is happy & settled and they accept that some families have more without feeling resentful or consumed with envy. We aren't ever going to be a well-off family. That's life.

And the families with the swimming pools etc love inviting ours round to play even though they know we cannot reciprocate. Maybe we're the charity case

But personally we are delighted with how school seems to be working out for them because they love it. When you've boy children who love going to school and who are eager to do their homework and learn, then it's worth every single penny.

It may not be unique to private schools but I see a huge change in my children since switching.