I think I have stopped loving my son (who is 11)...

[23Bailey]

I feel like many of you will hate me for this...

DS is 11... He is in Secondary School...

He is an absolute pain in the arse. I get 5 phone calls a day from school (each lesson) telling me all the things he has done - swearing, being rude, insulting teachers, insulting pupils, throwing things. It's really beginning to get to me. I tell him off/I take his gadgets away/I have tried the softer approach/the stricter approach; nothing works.

I go in for a meeting once a week. For them to just tell me how awful my son is to teach and how awful he is to be around. I feel like a total shot mother. I'm trying, but he doesn't listen. He doesn't care. He hits people/starts fights... He has been excluded 8 times in Yr 7, already. They have told me numerous times that he is close to going to a unit. He couldn't give two shits. He isn't nice to me, he hits me, says I'm a shit mum and sometimes wishes me dead. He pushes over his baby sister, calls her names, etc. She's only 2. It's getting ridiculous... I have taken him to the GP, they said he is just a bit lively and I need to take him out more - how can I do that? When school have told me to punish him. Then school nurse referred to CAMHS, he was assessed for ADHD, and a few other things. He is fine. He started therapy (CBT) but was so rude to her, she refused to see him.

I'm at my wits end, he's literally a horrible little boy. I'm sorry but he is making everyone's lives horrible. Children are refusing to come into school because they are scared of him hurting them, etc.

I don't know what to do anymore.

[SuburbanRhonda]

For the unit the are talking about is a pupil referral unit (or short stay school as a op says they were now called), they don't have to wait until he's permanently excluded before they refer him there. One of our children went for six weeks and then returned to us. Unfortunately it didn't work for him and he's now in an boarding school for boys with emotional and behavioural difficulties. Places in these schools are very costly though and this is why the LA prefers to try every other avenue before they commit to the funding, not because they want to "fob people off". They only have a limited budget and can't send every child in crisis to such a school.

You will need to be prepared for the long haul, OP. So look after yourself and take any help and support you can get

[SuburbanRhonda]

Sorry about typos - I hope you get my drift

[mw63]

Hi OP, although you may feel alone, you are not, this is so close to many others and my own situation, please have a look on SN Education and/or SN Children it made me feel better immediately just knowing I was one of many and not a the bad parent I was being made to feel.
I believe your Ds and yourself have been failed at primary level and there are things that they should have been done. Too many children are being left for secondary schools to sort out.
My Ds almost 11 now and I have been fighting for his SN to be acknowledged and addressed since he was 4. He now has extremely high anxiety through his schools failures to support him. It has been a very long fight which has affected my own health, the passed 2 years being extremely difficult whilst being fobbed off by LEA.
My first port of call would be to gp/school nurse for a referral to paediatrician. I am not sure how true it is but my neighbour has been told she cannot be referred to a paediatrician as she is with cahms?
There is light at the end of the tunnel, my Ds is now in a new mainstream primary with 1:1 support, he has repeated year 5 and I am currently waiting for his new draft EHCP that should have been here 3 wks ago.
On the point of not loving your Ds anymore...I have said the same to DP about mine, it made me feel so bad. I love my Ds so much, it's his behaviour I don"t like not him. Please keep telling him you love him, he really does need you.
Hugs and a huge hug for your ds. Please feel free to pm

[mw63]

Also...turning point for us was private ed psych report, best money I ever spent.

[joan12]

I'm sorry I can't read the whole thread. If you've tried CBT iand he hasn't engaged the next step is to request an assessment for child psychotherapy through CAMHS or privately through the ACP. They'll assess if he's suitable and if he is they'll work with exactly what he brings. If he isn't, you can ask for a State of Mind Assessment which is an in-depth look into what the problem might be, what his needs are and a care plan recommendation.

[5608Carrie]

Have a read about PDA if you think it might be that pop over to SN chat and see if Polter is about.

It does sound like he is ASD of some description. It's threads like this that make me really glad we have a diagnosis.

[smokeybandit]

You're dealing as best you can with a horrible situation but I think you're worrying too much about him not getting good grades if he went to a unit, if his behaviour doesn't change he will be an awful adult (so sorry to say that) that won't get a job no matter how many gcse's he gets. If he's been this way since a toddler with nothing obvious causing it there just HAS to be something underlying to cause it. He's probably awfully unhappy, but all anyone can see is his behaviour like it's on purpose. Can't say I'm an expert or had this level of behaviour but I would be on at every health professional available to work out what's going on. He's worn you down, you really need some good intervention with this. He's not a horrible child, he needs help. Don't give up him OP, you're in an awful situation but at the end of the day he's still just a child and he clearly needs you even though he makes you feel the opposite.

[Italiangreyhound]

Hi Bailey I am very sorry today has started so badly. Re "He has threatened to beat me up" How seriously do you take this threat? I really think you need to record every single incident of violence or threat of violence and ask for an emergency meeting with GP and school.

Please remember if he does hurt you it may leave his sister vulnerable to him, so please do take any serious threats seriously.

It was me who mentioned schizophrenia, as a possibility - not as a likelihood. I am aware in the UK it is rarely diagnosed for children and I am aware it is very rare.

I am also not saying I think this is the case for your son, I am saying it made me think of this.

I also thought of ODD and saw lots of people had mentioned PDA and other things like ASD or ADHD.

I don't for a moment think you or we can diagnose your son, but professionals can get to the bottom of this so rather than worrying too much now about 'the label' I would suggest you record as accurately as possible all the info here from you. Maybe it is written down elsewhere or in your head... and writing it here has maybe helped you clarify what happens, what patterns emerge etc.

Please let those who try and help you have all information, whether you think it is relevant or not.

I would be tempted if you have any energy to keep a food and sleep diary for him in relation to behavior, just to see if there is any correlation between behaviour, sleep and food! But this my be a red herring!

Good luck.

[ModernToss]

Huge sympathy, OP. This is a terrible situation but don't despair (and do NOT blame yourself for anything). The nicest teenage boy I know goes to a local school for children with behavioural and learning difficulties. He told me that he used to be an absolute horror and his mum had given up on him, but the school has turned his life around. At 15 going on 16 he's confident, outgoing, has outstanding social skills and does loads of voluntary work.

[Agadooo]

Feel so sad for you op-you've tried for so long and got nowhere-he wakes up with terrible behaviour and goes to bed the same-surely if it's been going on since he was a toddler then it's somethimg re his mental health - when you go into school meetings do you tell them all his problems at home and his bullying and aggressive behaviour to you and your daughter - do you ask them for help and tell that you're at your wits end ? Can u do the same at the doctors ? What do they say?

[DrCoconut]

Can I just say that my DS has no GCSE's (above an F anyway) but is at college. There are always ways into education. Although I have not dealt with the extreme behaviour you describe I have dealt with the battle that is getting SN diagnosed and actioned and feeling useless and judged.

[Clare1971]

You've probably had more advice than you can handle but here's my two penny worth. Go back to GP. Spell out behaviour and say you are not coping. Ask for psychiatric assessment. Call school. Ask for meeting. Ask for EHCP. Tell them you do not have the answers and you need them to point you in the right direction. Call social services. Tell them about the threats and that you cannot cope. The reason I'm suggesting all three approaches is because, as you have seen from this thread, there are so many possible causes, and all the services are over stretched. Somewhere, someone out there will be able to help, the more people you contact the more chance you have of meeting that person. This is not about your parenting. Your son clearly has additional needs. You need a whole team behind you.

[ErrieErika]

I have nothing else to add but I do hope you get things sorted x

[madmomma]

A PRU sounds like a good idea because he'll get more input from more resiliant, specialist staff. You won't have to pay. I wouldn't worry about GCSEs for now, it's his mental health that is the priority. Definitely go down the cahms route and insist on him being seen by a psychiatrist rather that just a psychiatric nurse. And ask for a second opinion too. Seriously. I feel for you, it must be so so hard. My brother had very severe mental health problems as a teen, and there was a time when my Dad thought he had stopped loving his precious son, but that's just the mental illness, not the person. The love will come back xxx

[Kleinzeit]

I haven’t got anything useful to add to the heap of advice so far but just wanted to say that nope, you aren’t a bad Mum, you’re a very good Mum whose child has problems that haven’t been picked up because they don’t fit into a tidy obvious box. It’s very hard to like someone who is so angry and aggressive, I have been there and done that too but my DS was given the right help much sooner and then things started to get better for us slowly. Wishing you and your DS all the very best

[Hairyfairy01]

Sounds really tough op. I went to a unit due to behavioural problems. It was the best thing to ever happen to me. The way of teaching was so much better for me, I felt more respected. My mum had the same fears as you but it really did turn my life around. I did only come out with 2 GCSEs but it gave me the confidence to go to sixth form where I took 4 GCSEs and passed. I then did ale vela followed by uni. School isn't working for him at this point of time. You need to consider all the options. I never got expelled from school officially (would have made their figures look bad I think) but I was suspended until further notice. I'm almost 40 now and still waiting for my further notice . I haven't read all the posts but I'm guessing cahms are involved?

[NettleTea]

Difference between PDA and ODD
www.pdasociety.org.uk/forum#/discussion/628/difference-between-pda-and-odd/p1
www.pdasociety.org.uk/forum#/discussion/2501/pda-vs-odd/p1
understandingpda.com/2013/04/16/odd-conduct-disorder-or-pda-comparisons-and-thoughts/

They used to believe that PDA developed into a personality disorder when they reached adulthood, but its far more likely that ODD will.
Untreated and unaddressed the trauma caused by living with PDA, in the confusion and fear, can cause a personality disorder to develop along with the PDA, but the PDA will be what is driving it.

ODD and personality disorders, as well as attachment disorders are 'mainly' parenting and environmental. PDA has its roots in anxiety and fear, and a desperate need to be in control, with often violent meltdowns.
My friends son can be absolutely vile in what he says to people, and he can be violent to other kids and even strangers. But underneath its because he is out of his comfort zone and he is out of control of his behaviour which can escalate quickly and hugely.

People who know my daughter, who have known her since she was a child, find it very hard to believe that she is on the autistic spectrum, her traits are described as subtle but significant. When she gets anxious they can get completely OTT for the situation, and you will not win in any argument as she will need to come out on top in order to regain control. Control makes them feel safe, but also frightens them as they are too young often to have complete control.

We were very fortunate to get a referral to the Elizabeth Newson Centre in Nottingham, which is the PDA specialist centre in the UK. There are other people who are beginning to understand it more fully and recognise it.

In our case I had to withdraw my child from school altogether, and allow her total control of what she did. I also had to take quite a back step from working so she knew that I was there, or I could get there or at least talk her down if she needed me. At times it was the worst time in my life. I felt completely trapped in my own home, held prisoner by my child, having to be very careful to find moments to reassure her brother - the trips between home and school became our short times to connect, as she dominated my time when we were at home and would go for him verbally if I attempted to focus on him.

But now she is better. Her anxiety levels dropped significantly. She started to return to being my daughter again. I have to remember that she has PDA or I forget and try the 'usual' parenting techniques and it all backfires. At the moment she is 2 weeks away from her GCSEs. Her anxiety is bad and we have had some quite dreaful behaviour. I havent been great and Ive shouted and been a bit rubbish but its a million miles from what it was.

[Primaryteach87]

I'm sorry I haven't read the full thread (!!). If it started very young..
-did he spend time in hospital as a baby/toddler?
-were you unwell at all?
-was there any domestic violence?

It sounds like there was some early childhood trauma.

Apologies if you have already answered this.

[Primaryteach87]

I say that as it sounds similar to a child I worked with, who had an attachment disorder. It wasn't the mum's fault (just thought I would say that as sometimes people jump to that conclusion).

[PhilPhilConnors]

NettleTea you sound very knowledgeable about PDA. Hope your Dd manages her GCSEs, must be a very tough time for her and you
My son was diagnosed last year, he is very eloquent and masks expertly, you really need to stop and watch him carefully to spot the ASD/PDA.
It's too easy to assume that a child is just being naughty, but as someone said further up, have a look at Dr Ross Green and his book The Explosive Child, children behave like this when expectations outstrip their abilities.
If you suspect PDA, buy the book My Daughter is not Naughty by Jane Sherwin, it explains PDA very well and goes through very helpful strategies.

[notapizzaeater]

I'd be at the doctors demanding they refer him for assessment. It's shocking that they've left you this long.

The next time he is violent I'd phone the police if only to get it,logged for help in the future,

[Italiangreyhound]

Thinking of you Bailey hugs XXX

[Absofrigginlootly]

Not rtft in the slightest and only skimmed through the OPs replies but has anyone mentioned sociopathy or psychopathy as possibilities?? Just thinking these are innate brain disorders and don't have to be linked to trauma like attachment and some personality disorders are. Just thinking about how you describe his total lack of empathy.....

Probably way off the mark. Don't mean to upset or offend. You sound like a fantastic mum and I don't know how you've coped up to now!

[hazelangell]

Absofrigginlootly - I don't believe sociopath and psychopath are used as a diagnosis, they would both come under antisocial personality disorder. You cannot get a diagnosis for antisocial personality disorder until someone is 18 years old - instead they would be diagnosed with conduct disorder which many people grow out of, if they do not grow out of it (or have it 'corrected') then it becomes a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder.

[NettleTea]

What age did he 'change'? Did it coincide with dad leaving, and has his behaviour got worse once people refused to see him?

I noticed 3 significant escalations with my daughter.

She was the perfect model child until her 3rd birthday, when it was suggested she share her new mini trampoline with friends at her party, and she screamed NO for the first time. Once she discovered she could say no she then used this new power, although was still pretty well behaved the majority of the time.

Her dad had left at 2, but when she was 6 she experienced a traumatic time with him and she didnt see him for a number of years. He refused to accept any responsibility for what had happened and refused to see her. She then expressed this in some very angry and controlling behaviour, tantrums etc, refusal and avoidance. This also coincided with her brother being born, and she was certainly pretty anti him for a number of years. I can see now that her security within the family had been shaken and she was trying to grasp back control or attention/proof of her importance in the way she could.

She could talk the talk academically but not get anything on paper. And alot of times she was using very adult language and vocabulary but reciting things verbatum that she had heard said by others. 5 min homework topics would result in 2 hours of extreme avoidance and the regular blood tests she had to have for her other condition caused complete hysterical avoidance to the point of hitting and biting nursing staff. At transition to secondary she began to exhibit the same behaviours in regards attending school, but it was only when the refusal was confronted to its extreme levels that I began to see the classical 'autistic' signs, such as flapping, stimming, loss of communication. Very subtle in day to day (though during clinics with therapists she didnt like she displayed some quite astounding behaviour!!) When there is no anxiety she is a lovely charming girl.