I think I have stopped loving my son (who is 11)...

[23Bailey]

I feel like many of you will hate me for this...

DS is 11... He is in Secondary School...

He is an absolute pain in the arse. I get 5 phone calls a day from school (each lesson) telling me all the things he has done - swearing, being rude, insulting teachers, insulting pupils, throwing things. It's really beginning to get to me. I tell him off/I take his gadgets away/I have tried the softer approach/the stricter approach; nothing works.

I go in for a meeting once a week. For them to just tell me how awful my son is to teach and how awful he is to be around. I feel like a total shot mother. I'm trying, but he doesn't listen. He doesn't care. He hits people/starts fights... He has been excluded 8 times in Yr 7, already. They have told me numerous times that he is close to going to a unit. He couldn't give two shits. He isn't nice to me, he hits me, says I'm a shit mum and sometimes wishes me dead. He pushes over his baby sister, calls her names, etc. She's only 2. It's getting ridiculous... I have taken him to the GP, they said he is just a bit lively and I need to take him out more - how can I do that? When school have told me to punish him. Then school nurse referred to CAMHS, he was assessed for ADHD, and a few other things. He is fine. He started therapy (CBT) but was so rude to her, she refused to see him.

I'm at my wits end, he's literally a horrible little boy. I'm sorry but he is making everyone's lives horrible. Children are refusing to come into school because they are scared of him hurting them, etc.

I don't know what to do anymore.

[RoboticSealpup]

I would go back to the GP every damn day until they give him a psychiatrist referral. Don't put on a brave face in front of the doctor, sometimes they only take you seriously if they see how upset your are. Tell the GP (a different one!) exactly what DS does and says, like you have here. I can imagine that this is very hard to do, and might feel disloyal towards him, but they really need to realise just how bad it is, and how constant it is. I don't think they would have dismissed you like that if they did.

Perhaps you already did this... I would approach it from the healthcare point of view if you can't get anywhere with the school.

Sorry you're having such a hard time. It sounds like you're having to be positively superhuman at the moment, but nobody can keep that up forever.

[CurlyhairedAssassin]

OP, you sound a bit reticent about the PRU idea (which to me sounds like a great step). Are you sure this reticence isn't coming across at meetins with school. In my experience schools need to make sure parents are fully on board with plans like this as, have others have said, PRUs are very costly and any sign of a parent backing out or being unsure will put them off pursuing the whole process.

You sound like a fantastic mum, you really do. I work in a secondary school and there really are some shit, feckless parents out there, whose behaviour towards their kids is so obviously damaging. You are at the other end of the scale. You are trying your best but it's clear your son's case is quite extreme and this isn't something you can solve on your own.

Is the shorter day in a PRU putting you off? Will it cause you a problem re: your working hours? Is there any way at all you can reduce them for a few years?

[randomer]

yes please give us an update

[Italiangreyhound]

How's it going Bailey? Thinking of you.

[midsummabreak]

I need to take him out more - how can I do that? When school have told me to punish him. I would disagree with the school here: You can take him out more, the school have indeed excluded him eight times in year 7- how is that working for him and you?? It actully can have reverse effect and make him less engaged in his education and teachers Schools don't have all the answers to deal with children that don't fit in the mould and detract from the system. The do the very best they can ithin the education system constraints. Not putting down teachers as they have a very trying job, and I'm sure do best poss, and trying to keep him at school as able, but have to show consequences also He does deserve consequences for behaviour but he is still the same as all of us and needs time away from things and needs to have time every day spent connecting with family: cooking together, walking to shops together,etc He still needs to feel connected with his family just as all of us do, at the end of the (shitty!!) day
You can take him out for hot chocolate, to walk along the shops/in a park That is the only way to reconnect and learn what he is feeling and whether there is anxiety, feelings of hopelessnes, or if he blames his family for his Dad leaving him, or whatever is underneath his nasty outbursts. He will of course be defensive so best to casually talk only when calm, and mainly focus on connecting and showing him you really do care and do love him, despite really despairing the nasty behaviour. Maybe at this point he can't say a lot about how he feels or offer much insight but that conversation should be left open for him every day, so he can touch base with you if he makes sense of his feelings at some point He need to be forgiven so he can move forward, but also maintaining u expect respect 7 no yelling/namecalling/nasty actions just as he deserves respect and no yelling/namecalling etc

[totalrecall1]

[midsummabreak]

NettleTea 5 min homework topics would result in 2 hours of extreme avoidance...........but it was only when the refusal was confronted to its extreme levels that I began to see the classical 'autistic' signs, such as flapping, stimming, loss of communication. Very subtle in day to day........When there is no anxiety she is a lovely charming girl So many of us have children that happen to have autistic traits, some who've been diagnosed, some not When they are not totally losing it about homework or becoming defensive and rude back to teachers they are angelic, charming often funny quirky children
When my son is at his worst, and refusing school and refusing schoolwork (and same as Nettle, 20 mins of homework becomes three hours of avoidance and verbal aggression towards me as he becomes so worked up about it) it does help me to remember that there is a worried, anxious child behind the aggressive front And sometimes it is best to trick him out of his anxiety, by chatting about other things and coming back to it when he is calmer and not travelling on his emotional rollercoaster
Is your son's rude and aggressive behaviour his defensive reaction to expected problems he can't deal with facing, such as facing his angry, unhappy teacher who is at the end of his/her tether and tired of his poor class work efforts? If so you are not alone, and I have a son similar, who has never been diagnosed and is bright like your son, frustrated like your son, and can be very frustrating, like your son. Maybe he charmed the GP who said he was fine, as maybe he wasn't anxious at the time and didn't have his defensive front up about having to face angry teachers or a new routine or a hated routine he couldn't deal with But then again, maybe this is a red herring, same as Italiangreyhound states. Maybe your son has a different reason for his behaviour completely than my son.
Only you know what your son tends to react to and what seems to calm him and what makes him smile and feel happy As you and your son seek support and begin to make sense of all this, keep remembering that there are always others with similar children going thru similar stuff and seeking support so their child can be the best they can be

[NowSissyThatWalk]

This sounds awful bailey Please don't be so hard on yourself, agree with pp that a unit might really help him get the support he needs.
If it helps, my DM used to say to me in the depths of despair that she wasn't sure she loved my DBro. He was also incredibly difficult but in a different way to you DS. Now they have a good relationship, she just couldn't feel that bond after someone had eroded away at her with hate for years.

[PiecesOfCake]

I've read the OP and dipped into some of the responses.

Someone mentioned "running laps as punishment" - BUT - could you turn this around and have running laps as as the treat?

A lovely ex-DP of mine sometimes found that exercise was the only way to stop himself from getting very down / get rid of his demons.

Challenging himself (or you challenge him at first) to faster lap-times, or longer laps could be the exercise needed at the same time as giving himself goals that he (may feel he) lacks...

[mummytime]

I think you need to take drastic action, if not now the next time there is an "incident" - phone the police or take him to A and E. He needs psychiatric help and investigation now - and that may be the only way to get it.

Go back to your GP and demand a referral. This is not "lively" it is extreme behaviour, putting your and your DDs health and mental health at risk.
I would also be tempted to self-refer to SS.

[BitOutOfPractice]

Oh op I have no wise words or experience to offer I just wanted to say that I feel for you so much. You sound so worn down and trying so hard. I hope you get some help and support

[Willow2016]

Just a heads up from experience.

My eldest was assessed for ADHD as he had most of the symptoms but CAHMS said because he could sit and play a computer game then he obviously didnt have it! (I kid you not!) The fact that he jumped from one leg to another the whole time didnt count!
My eldest also has many PDA traits and after researching it I realised he had 80% of them all his life!
He was having sessions with CAHMs at high school and I mentioned it to her. She had never heard of it! Had to give her web addresses and print outs of info! Then she came back to me and said her manager didnt believe in it so he obviously didnt have it! It was all due to the fact his dad and I split up.
I gave up after that!
My son was not benefitting from her sessions, he just got time out of doing classes and was telling her anything she wanted to hear, I tried telling her how manipulative he can be to no avail. She would ask him to agree to say getting off the computer at a certain time and he would! Erm I have been telling him that for months he doesnt do it! He has a meltdown!
Sitting listening to her talking to us both in a realllly slow whisper like we were very stupid little children almost drove me mad!

Now I deal with his issues on my own.

OP push like crazy for help, you cant keep doing this on your own. You need help for him as much as you before he does something he will regret forever. Going into a unit seems like a good idea for him to get more support and less stress from school and hopefully get the help he needs. I am sure he doesnt want to be like this deep down. I have had my son crying on my shoulder as he is so sorry and ashamed of himself when it was at its worst. Telling me to send him away as he was a terrible person and we would be better off without him. Its hearbreaking and CAHMS did nothing to help him at all. I have rare days when I want to run away and mine doesnt have the severity of issues as yours. He is only verbally abusive with definate triggers and then is sorry. And the rest of the time is a sweetie.

Dont give up on your son, but you need to think about you and your dd too Good Luck.

[NettleTea]

her father is very similar indeed, although he is more agressive and verbal and volatile.
I suspect he has PDA too but as it was never addressed or recognised (he comes from a different culture where mental health isnt dealt with too well) it has 'fixed' into an overlying personality disorder. His underlying confusion, insecurity and fear are what drives the reactive explosive behaviour.
She had no direct contact with him for many years, and had not seen the identical behaviour, which was one of the things which assured me that it was a nature thing rather than nurture. Of course ASD has a genetic link, personality disorders far less so.
As others have also pointed out, PDA does not respond to parenting techniques. When my daughter is refusing/avoiding there is nothing that can change her mind in that moment. rewards, or punishments. Nothing. Just allowing the moment to pass without getting caught up in it, allowing it to diffuse and approach it in a different way.
The Ross Green book is great, and most details can be found online here
www.livesinthebalance.org/
The 'my daughter is not naughty' lady, Jane Sherwin, has a blog here with lots of info
understandingpda.com/my-daughter-is-not-naughty/
and there are numerous supportive PDA forums on Facebook

[NettleTea]

What age did he 'change'? Did it coincide with dad leaving, and has his behaviour got worse once people refused to see him?

I noticed 3 significant escalations with my daughter.

She was the perfect model child until her 3rd birthday, when it was suggested she share her new mini trampoline with friends at her party, and she screamed NO for the first time. Once she discovered she could say no she then used this new power, although was still pretty well behaved the majority of the time.

Her dad had left at 2, but when she was 6 she experienced a traumatic time with him and she didnt see him for a number of years. He refused to accept any responsibility for what had happened and refused to see her. She then expressed this in some very angry and controlling behaviour, tantrums etc, refusal and avoidance. This also coincided with her brother being born, and she was certainly pretty anti him for a number of years. I can see now that her security within the family had been shaken and she was trying to grasp back control or attention/proof of her importance in the way she could.

She could talk the talk academically but not get anything on paper. And alot of times she was using very adult language and vocabulary but reciting things verbatum that she had heard said by others. 5 min homework topics would result in 2 hours of extreme avoidance and the regular blood tests she had to have for her other condition caused complete hysterical avoidance to the point of hitting and biting nursing staff. At transition to secondary she began to exhibit the same behaviours in regards attending school, but it was only when the refusal was confronted to its extreme levels that I began to see the classical 'autistic' signs, such as flapping, stimming, loss of communication. Very subtle in day to day (though during clinics with therapists she didnt like she displayed some quite astounding behaviour!!) When there is no anxiety she is a lovely charming girl.

[hazelangell]

Absofrigginlootly - I don't believe sociopath and psychopath are used as a diagnosis, they would both come under antisocial personality disorder. You cannot get a diagnosis for antisocial personality disorder until someone is 18 years old - instead they would be diagnosed with conduct disorder which many people grow out of, if they do not grow out of it (or have it 'corrected') then it becomes a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder.

[Absofrigginlootly]

Not rtft in the slightest and only skimmed through the OPs replies but has anyone mentioned sociopathy or psychopathy as possibilities?? Just thinking these are innate brain disorders and don't have to be linked to trauma like attachment and some personality disorders are. Just thinking about how you describe his total lack of empathy.....

Probably way off the mark. Don't mean to upset or offend. You sound like a fantastic mum and I don't know how you've coped up to now!

[Italiangreyhound]

Thinking of you Bailey hugs XXX

[notapizzaeater]

I'd be at the doctors demanding they refer him for assessment. It's shocking that they've left you this long.

The next time he is violent I'd phone the police if only to get it,logged for help in the future,

[PhilPhilConnors]

NettleTea you sound very knowledgeable about PDA. Hope your Dd manages her GCSEs, must be a very tough time for her and you
My son was diagnosed last year, he is very eloquent and masks expertly, you really need to stop and watch him carefully to spot the ASD/PDA.
It's too easy to assume that a child is just being naughty, but as someone said further up, have a look at Dr Ross Green and his book The Explosive Child, children behave like this when expectations outstrip their abilities.
If you suspect PDA, buy the book My Daughter is not Naughty by Jane Sherwin, it explains PDA very well and goes through very helpful strategies.

[Primaryteach87]

I say that as it sounds similar to a child I worked with, who had an attachment disorder. It wasn't the mum's fault (just thought I would say that as sometimes people jump to that conclusion).

[Primaryteach87]

I'm sorry I haven't read the full thread (!!). If it started very young..
-did he spend time in hospital as a baby/toddler?
-were you unwell at all?
-was there any domestic violence?

It sounds like there was some early childhood trauma.

Apologies if you have already answered this.

[NettleTea]

Difference between PDA and ODD
www.pdasociety.org.uk/forum#/discussion/628/difference-between-pda-and-odd/p1
www.pdasociety.org.uk/forum#/discussion/2501/pda-vs-odd/p1
understandingpda.com/2013/04/16/odd-conduct-disorder-or-pda-comparisons-and-thoughts/

They used to believe that PDA developed into a personality disorder when they reached adulthood, but its far more likely that ODD will.
Untreated and unaddressed the trauma caused by living with PDA, in the confusion and fear, can cause a personality disorder to develop along with the PDA, but the PDA will be what is driving it.

ODD and personality disorders, as well as attachment disorders are 'mainly' parenting and environmental. PDA has its roots in anxiety and fear, and a desperate need to be in control, with often violent meltdowns.
My friends son can be absolutely vile in what he says to people, and he can be violent to other kids and even strangers. But underneath its because he is out of his comfort zone and he is out of control of his behaviour which can escalate quickly and hugely.

People who know my daughter, who have known her since she was a child, find it very hard to believe that she is on the autistic spectrum, her traits are described as subtle but significant. When she gets anxious they can get completely OTT for the situation, and you will not win in any argument as she will need to come out on top in order to regain control. Control makes them feel safe, but also frightens them as they are too young often to have complete control.

We were very fortunate to get a referral to the Elizabeth Newson Centre in Nottingham, which is the PDA specialist centre in the UK. There are other people who are beginning to understand it more fully and recognise it.

In our case I had to withdraw my child from school altogether, and allow her total control of what she did. I also had to take quite a back step from working so she knew that I was there, or I could get there or at least talk her down if she needed me. At times it was the worst time in my life. I felt completely trapped in my own home, held prisoner by my child, having to be very careful to find moments to reassure her brother - the trips between home and school became our short times to connect, as she dominated my time when we were at home and would go for him verbally if I attempted to focus on him.

But now she is better. Her anxiety levels dropped significantly. She started to return to being my daughter again. I have to remember that she has PDA or I forget and try the 'usual' parenting techniques and it all backfires. At the moment she is 2 weeks away from her GCSEs. Her anxiety is bad and we have had some quite dreaful behaviour. I havent been great and Ive shouted and been a bit rubbish but its a million miles from what it was.

[Hairyfairy01]

Sounds really tough op. I went to a unit due to behavioural problems. It was the best thing to ever happen to me. The way of teaching was so much better for me, I felt more respected. My mum had the same fears as you but it really did turn my life around. I did only come out with 2 GCSEs but it gave me the confidence to go to sixth form where I took 4 GCSEs and passed. I then did ale vela followed by uni. School isn't working for him at this point of time. You need to consider all the options. I never got expelled from school officially (would have made their figures look bad I think) but I was suspended until further notice. I'm almost 40 now and still waiting for my further notice . I haven't read all the posts but I'm guessing cahms are involved?

[Kleinzeit]

I haven’t got anything useful to add to the heap of advice so far but just wanted to say that nope, you aren’t a bad Mum, you’re a very good Mum whose child has problems that haven’t been picked up because they don’t fit into a tidy obvious box. It’s very hard to like someone who is so angry and aggressive, I have been there and done that too but my DS was given the right help much sooner and then things started to get better for us slowly. Wishing you and your DS all the very best

[madmomma]

A PRU sounds like a good idea because he'll get more input from more resiliant, specialist staff. You won't have to pay. I wouldn't worry about GCSEs for now, it's his mental health that is the priority. Definitely go down the cahms route and insist on him being seen by a psychiatrist rather that just a psychiatric nurse. And ask for a second opinion too. Seriously. I feel for you, it must be so so hard. My brother had very severe mental health problems as a teen, and there was a time when my Dad thought he had stopped loving his precious son, but that's just the mental illness, not the person. The love will come back xxx