I think I have stopped loving my son (who is 11)...

[23Bailey]

I feel like many of you will hate me for this...

DS is 11... He is in Secondary School...

He is an absolute pain in the arse. I get 5 phone calls a day from school (each lesson) telling me all the things he has done - swearing, being rude, insulting teachers, insulting pupils, throwing things. It's really beginning to get to me. I tell him off/I take his gadgets away/I have tried the softer approach/the stricter approach; nothing works.

I go in for a meeting once a week. For them to just tell me how awful my son is to teach and how awful he is to be around. I feel like a total shot mother. I'm trying, but he doesn't listen. He doesn't care. He hits people/starts fights... He has been excluded 8 times in Yr 7, already. They have told me numerous times that he is close to going to a unit. He couldn't give two shits. He isn't nice to me, he hits me, says I'm a shit mum and sometimes wishes me dead. He pushes over his baby sister, calls her names, etc. She's only 2. It's getting ridiculous... I have taken him to the GP, they said he is just a bit lively and I need to take him out more - how can I do that? When school have told me to punish him. Then school nurse referred to CAMHS, he was assessed for ADHD, and a few other things. He is fine. He started therapy (CBT) but was so rude to her, she refused to see him.

I'm at my wits end, he's literally a horrible little boy. I'm sorry but he is making everyone's lives horrible. Children are refusing to come into school because they are scared of him hurting them, etc.

I don't know what to do anymore.

But, what are the school willing to put in place as an alternative? its debatable whether a college would accept your ds application as it stands.

Camhs approach in my area and I quote is that "labels aren't helpful". All it did was set back getting an ASD diagnosis four years and pushed me to breaking point. Now we have it it's made school much easier because it gives them an idea of the approach needed.

I had the whole he's just an active quirky boy thing from doctors which wasn't helpful. And the counting is familiar. My DS does it when stressed to help calm down.

He needs assessing by a paediatrician again. It's not his fault and it's not your fault either.

23Bailey I am so sorry this sounds utter shit.

I would not oppose the unit at all, and would encourage it. It sounds like you need some serious respite.

I think their dad should be paying more than £50 a month for the two of them!

I am basing this on absolutely nothing but a hunch, I am not medically trained and I am probably wrong but I am thinking Schizophrenia or some sort of personality disorder.

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/19/my-daughter-the-schizophrenic

I really think you need HELP and I mean BIG TIME. Please shout about this to anyone who will listen. If your school won't help find solutions (and I understand they are trying) can your GP intervene? Your MP?

I wouldn't worry about specific qualifications etc yet. If he carries on with this type of behavior he may well end up in a young offender unit, sorry that sounds awful but I do mean it. He is a danger to you and your daughter but he is your son. At 11 he is not yet anywhere near as strong as he is going to get. you need to find out what is causing this and what treatment/therapy/medication will help him control these very strong and very dangerous impulses.

If you can get a few professionals on your side, who are willing to help him, no matter what that means, you might see a way through. Please also see what, if any, help is there for you.

Just another voice of support. You are not a terrible mother, just an overwhelmed one. My daughter can be very challenging so I really do empathize. I would ask for further testing, because it seems as though there is more to it then just being "lively". God speed, mama.

PS I am sure you have wondered about this and I have no idea if it is correct, at all, but here is some further info.

www.schizophrenia.com/earlysigns.htm#

The thing to remember with whatever is causing your son these problems is that finding out what it is, and what will help him, is the goal. Not avoiding labels etc. I personally think labels are only unhelpful if they are untrue.

I'd also explore PDA and something else called ODD (Opposition Defiance Disorder) and ADHD, all of which we considered for our DD - who is diffiuclt but no where near as difficult as your son. In the end we went through CAMBS and all we were told about our dd is that she has autistic tendencies. Her behavior was not as extreme as your son at all and she has, as she got older, got a lot better; although hormones are now creeping/deluging in! She is almost the same age as your son.

I've tried to parent in a different way and have found 'Supernanny' doesn't work for us! But I really feel this is nothing at all to do with your parenting and there must be a medical or other underlying issue.

Is there any chance he suffered some trauma or abuse anywhere in the past that could be affecting him? The reason i ask if because I am an adopter and as we do not know about our children's full background (it's actually my son who is adopted and he is pretty much fine) but adoption makes you think about all these issues, and connections to past experiences etc. Normally if you have a birth child you do know what has happened in their lives, but not always.

Your son's behavior and his anger to you seem to me (IMHO) to kind of be pushing you away, making it impossible for you to love him, or at least trying to do that. I am wondering what is driving him to this. If the behavior and attitude are relentless (always the same and never any let up) I wonder if that would point to a medical problem, imbalances in hormones or whatever or in the brain that make it just so very hard for him to react normally to things like a fun day out.

In your shoes I would be thinking about these more extreme things and not allowing anyone to suggest it is bad parenting etc (which I had suggested to me, as in not strict enough with dd!).

My friend's son has anxiety and some sort of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and she has been told it is her parenting (it is not!).

I had OCD in my teens and 20s and anxiety in my thirties. When I look at my family history I can see in my dad's side of the family anxiety etc was very present.

Some might see it as learned behavior but I do think there is a genetic propensity for some mental health issues as well as the 'learned behavior thing'.

Are there mental health issues in you or your son's father's wider family?

I was lucky in that I had talking therapies (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) for my anxiety and it worked brilliantly. I never had any treatment for OCD and it morphed into an eating disorder I am still trying to be free from, and seeing some success with (yes) more therapy!

I guess I am telling you all this to say that I know something about the topic of mental health! BUT I really think you need the best medical brains in action here, I tried to read all your posts but could not easily see what doctors had been involved in his assistance.

Please be careful how much you share any ideas of problems with your son. You do not want him to label himself if it is not true! It is very easy now for kids to access all kind of information and I think it could be detrimental to him if he got hold of some old-fashioned ideas of schizophrenia or other mental health issues which may not be helpful.

School are about education, and I don't think this is an education issue. It is affecting education but I am not sure you or the school can 'teach' this out of him! He needs more.

I wish you all the very best and really hope whatever is causing these issues your son can be helped and so can you. You completely and absolutely deserve help and to be free of this and he, although he may not be very likable or lovable at the moment, deserves this help too.

You're a single parent, holding down 3 jobs with no support. You're doing extremely well. It's heart breaking when there are behavioural issues regarding children, but exhausting when you're on your own. No advice here, just wanted to say all the best.

This is so sad, I really feel for you. You desperately need help. Please don't think that this behaviour pattern is down to you as a mother and that somehow just by doing a couple of things differently you can turn your son around. From what you say about the history, this is way beyond your ability or skill as a Mum to make it all OK.
Well done for all that you have done and tried. Even saying that you feel you are beginning not to love him is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. I cannot imagine there are many who wouldn't feel the same in your shoes! It is brave to be honest about it and you are showing your love by being concerned by the lack of love, if that makes sense.
Don't blame yourself. Somehow just keep shouting until you get the help you need.

Great advice from SuburbanRhonda, NettleTea and sleeponeday, and others.

NettleTea Re "ODD and Attachment disorder are both often misdiagnosed in PDA." would you mind saying more about that, please? we looked at both for our dd, and she seemed to 'score' some ticks for one and for the other but a low amount for both. I couldn't quite work out what was different about the ODD and PDA. I am just interested you could pm me, if willing, but it might be worth sharing here if you are willing? Thanks.

He sounds like a very very unhappy little boy. Can you think of why that might be?

Totally agree with Adnerb95.

DistanceCall re "Your child is reacting to something that is very wrong in your home. The fact that his father wants nothing to do with him speaks volumes."

You do not know he is reacting to something at home, this could be a medical problem and will never be fixed without medical intervention! Punishments or nice days out can't fix everything!

Parents sometimes just cannot 'fix' children with good parenting, some times more is needed and parents who have children with 'issues' can get very tired of hearing it must be a parenting problem. Sometimes it may be but in this case it really does not sound like it.

i think he should go to the unit.

if he believes that his Dad left because of him, he may be stuck in a cycle of endless negativity where he believes that he is a lost cause
It will need firm boundaries with lots of love to turn this behaviour around, but I do believe it can be done, within the context of his individual personality, which will remain the same He may always need firm boundaries, and may never fit well within his current school system, but that does not mean he is incapable of learning from his mistakes to slowly better himself.
Keep reinforcing that you really hate and will not tolerate his horrible behaviour teach him you will always keep loving & believing in his ability to learn and grow ,given the time and the opportunities to learn from his mistakes, despite having a background of negative, irritable and nasty behaviour. This is not realistic- it takes into context that your young man is human, and does have flaws (and who doesn't in this world, some of have learnt very well to keep quiet and take the path of less destruction, others like your son are playing the role of the path of most destruction!) This does need a very thick skin, to deal with the nasty hateful remarks, i know, as i have a son who has dished out some horrible remarks similar , and have also despaired just as you are :) Keep reinforcing no aggresive behaviour will be tolerated, and have short, but firm consequences on the same day. I make my son apologise every single time he slips and makes a stupid or rude remark. Also, don't get sucked in if he is acting the part of the child who doesn't care and counting the time away-I have no doubt he would rather not be punished and have full access to his favourite games/ the internet
More importantly, though, you need to have positive consequences for every single positive action or remark , even a joke that makes you laugh. Praise him for his humour, tell him he has a great smile, teach him to cook his favourite simple desert, his favorite meal , his favourite drink, then praise him for his cooking skills. Praise praise praise Break the cycle of negativity He is looking for negative attention as he sees this as good attention Ignore as much as possible any silly actions or remarks and dont feed them with negative attention, just turn your back- and give your attention to his sister or whoever's in the room at the time he is being silly-this is way more powerful than any punishment . He may be addicted to seeing others upset from his nastiness It gives him power) Don't feed his addiction, turn away, dont show you are upset, go for a quick walk outside with your little 2 y.o., do whatever you have to do to break the cycle

My son had amazing primary teachers with endless patience, strong boundaries where needed and they knew to have consequences when needed for the behaviour, and to hate the behaviour, not hate the child. I was really lucky as I had that on my side- you sound as tho you may not have ? Your husband may have inadvertantly also fed his negative attention seeking addiction and continued his negative self belief

But, despite these drawbacks, i believe there is always hope Our children can be very smart at manipulating us and bringing us down, this gives them power, and it is a nasty behaviour pattern to be in but please know: some of us Mums have also despaired and we have got your back. Sending love and solidairty xxxOOO

Actually just rtft and this has been an issue since nursery? This is way beyond a parent being able to 'fix it' . I think you need to go to the gp again

TheDevilMadeMeDoIt what wise words. Brilliant. And Medusacascade so glad your son got the help he needs. We got the whole labels speech with dd and dyslexia, didn't stop her having it or stop it making school three times harder for her and causing her issues. I think the whole 'labels' speech is a reaction to people being wrongly labelled! Of course wrong labels are wrong! the clue is in the name! I also thought the counting sounded significant.

PaniWahine so glad things worked for your brother, I think that can give 23Bailey hope.

Also agree with others that you need to keep reaching out for support

I did access a psychologist for my own menatl health and my son saw a child psychologist. please dont give up- can you access a GP mental health support plan Ask the GP- what is best in your son's situation and If s/he suggests a psychologist or psychiatrist - they need to be aware of his history of nasty lashing out & that you love your son but his behaviour has really taken it's toll and you need support to enable positive change and hope for his future

Sending hugs and solidarity xxxooo

23Bailey Re "I have taken him to the GP, they said he is just a bit lively and I need to take him out more - how can I do that" - [shocked] the GP sounds like a bit of a knob, or simply not aware of full picture....

What did you say when GP said 'a bit lively'? Please say what you said to us....

(in no particular order)...

"The therapist used to be genuinely upset by his comments and couldn't see him anymore" - (can you remember what he said to the therapist? What is going on in his mind when he is calling you or the therapist names/saying things etc... I wonder? I know all kids might use rude words etc but these words seem calculated to hurt/push away, as well as just being 'rude')

"At nursery he was sent home at least once a month for hitting and biting" - (longevity of issues)

"he is saying more and more nasty things" - (more and more suggests an escalation, you need to emphasis if it is getting worse)

"I have tried being nice and finding something nice for us to do and he will go, when we get there "you know, you're actually a cunt" I will ignore it but he will then start pushing me, he is small (4ft something) but I'm only bang on 5ft. He has physically pushed me over on our nice days out, it doesn't work."

• how often has he done this, once, twice, too many times to remember?

It's important I think how often this has happened. EG once is too often but three times is even worse!

My dd once punched me in the stomach. It wasn't hard but it hurt and it shocked me, she was about 8. Now she is 11 and much stronger. If she did it now she could hurt me. I think it is fair to say she is almost as strong as me now, her strength is increasing as mine is decreasing. She has also tried shoving me in the street!

I am supremely hot on addressing this type of thing now. I am now quite hot on things that lead up to it, disrespectful behavior or aggressive behavior. My friend's dd has 'squared up to her' so it is possibly not uncommon for children to push this area/aggression but once it tips over into actual violence this really needs addressing in a new way, IMHO.

More to follow from what you've said, I am reading back through it to see if my comments have been too alarmist (sorry if they have, not my intention!)

"he just sits there counting, for forever, he will get to 60000000000"

• (that seems an unusual way of dealing with things, quite a calculated and clever way, which means he is in some ways in control maybe)

"My mum refuses to see him, my dad refuses. He is so physically nasty and his choice of words are spiteful. He will describe how he wants you to die and other awful stuff. He is so difficult to deal with."

• (physically nasty? Do you mean aggressive or violent, I think you might need to spell this out to whoever is trying to help you)

You said he pushed you over. Has he done this to others, you mentioned hitting and biting as a child, has this stopped?

"his room (which is basically empty)"

• (why is it empty, has he smashed everything up, tell the doctor this if this is the case)

You said "His dad just doesn't want anything to do with him and wants to put him up for adoption, which is ridiculous."

• I wonder if social services mightbe able to help you but they would not be looking for adoptive parents for a very disturbed 11 year old who has an amazing mum! But if you are ever at the end of your tether then I think social services could be an option, I mean if you really cannot cope! (I am so very sorry to say this and I hope you will not come to this!)

Re "He will be mixing with a lot of children who can't be in mainstream and I don't know how helpful that is? I don't know, I just find it a little sad."

• Of course it is sad but, be honest, he cannot be in mainstream school. He is getting older and bigger, he may be short now but when he is older, how are you or a mainstream school going to handle that anger if it is not treated in some way.

You need to say this "I know it's different, but when you're being abused, you do everything you can to get away, but when it's your son, it just isn't possible to get away." To professionals. When I said you can't 'teach' it out of him I didn't mean education didn't have a part to play and school won't be a massive part of his life, i meant it is nothing I think school on their own can deal with! Sorry if that was confusing.

Must go to bed, just feel for you so much. Please, please do tell us what happens,, we are all rooting for you!

Today is a new day, it's a new week, things can change.

Bless you 23Bailey

I'm sure that you still love him or you wouldn't be writing this post. It's possible to love a child and not like them at times especially with what is going on.

You've been let down by everyone (particularly many profeessionals) since nursery and that is just not good enough. Your child isn't lively, he's a child in need. You need to go to school and the GP and demand help.

I know you have already said he has been like this since a very young age but I can't help but wonder how his behaviour has been since dc2 arrived and dad left.... 2 life events that will effect even the most 'balanced' of children.

The poster who said he is now in a cycle of people refusing to deal with his behaviour has a good point. It seems to have become a self fulfilling prophecy to some degree (im not debating for a moment that there is a serious issue though!!)

I think it's time to involve as many people as possible. Get back to the GP with a list of everything you can think of, get back to cahms, ask for a point of contact at the school so you can keep in regular contact and liase with regards to home and school behaviour, contact SS. Reach out to anyone and everyone who can possibly help.

It's an awful situation but I for one think you are amazing. My NT 3.5yo pushes me to the limits sometimes, I couldn't cope with all you have coped with. Keep strong. X

I think it sounds like possible attachment disorder too. How old was he when his dad left?

Do you have a family support worker? If not I would ring SS and ask for one, saying you are in crisis. They can help organise a CAF meeting etc

Although personality disorder/schizophrenia are possibilities, in the UK I've been told that these are not diagnosed until late teens/early twenties so you might not get and answer on them

All my family refuse to see him. His dad left us because of his behaviour... It's just me left, but it's too hard. I know he needs me, but why does he say such horrible things? Why does he wish me dead?

He doesn't. Not really. Everyone hates him except you, but he can't believe he is worthy of anyone's love so he is pushing you.

You do not need to like him to love him, the two are different.

Having said that I have no magic answers, or if there are I don't know them.

I have taken him to the GP, they said he is just a bit lively and I need to take him out more - how can I do that? When school have told me to punish him

Could you do trips to the park with him running laps as punishment? Sorry if that is just ridiculous and he'd laugh at you.

You've been enormously let down - this goes far beyond what could be a simple parenting issue. My first thought on reading was ODD, but like a PP said, someone needs to formally rule out a psychotic illness.

It's also way beyond what a therapist can reasonably be expected to help with and frankly it's shocking that CBT, which is a perfectly good therapy for mild psychological problems, is now being prescribed as a sticking plaster for severely disturbed and violent children. What a waste of public funds, and a serious failure of care for a child in urgent need of help. Your son needs to be seen by a child psychiatrist with experience of dealing with behavioural disorders.

Good luck and I hope you are able to find some help for your son and respite for yourself. Please remember that you and your daughter need to be helped and protected too.