To expect Mum to pay up after 4YO child scratched every panel on our car

[LupoLoopy]

Context: My wife works at a nursery school as an assistant.. Her car was parked in the staff car park, which the kids egress though when they leave, under parental supervision.

During lunch time pick-up, one of the departing 4 year old's took a rock and scratched every panel and light fixture on her car, all whilst his Mum was standing within 6M of the car, chatting to a friend.

The incident was captured on CCTV.

The cost of a proper repair is so close to the value of the car, I fear it being written off, which is something we could afford but would hurt us a lot financially.

Although the damage is only cosmetic, the car was pristine before the incident (I'm a fussy sod who takes good care of his stuff) and I don't see why we should tolerate driving a 'shed' around 'for the children'.

We're trying to seek restitution from the School's insurance (if it will cover it) but to cover our butts, we've reported the incident to the police (so and official record exists) and reported it to our insurer.

If we have to use our car insurance AND we're fortunate enough to not have the car written off, it's going to tank my partners insurance premiums.

Frankly, I want to encourage the police to be fully involved and start proceedings immediately for civil action via the small claims court. I just dont think I can have confidence that Mum is going to be wired in the same way I am - i.e. it's her liability and don't see why we should be financially crippled by her parental inattention.

AIBU?

Honestly @Myinlaws, because the CCTV footage is of a minor and I dont want to be the custodian of it. I have no idea if we're even ALLOWED to have a copy of it - it's taken on school grounds and is of one of the kids. Not sure I'd be happy with the school dishing out footage of my kids to anyone BUT the Police?

I've already said I'm not going to the meeting and had no intention of doing so. I appreciate others have suggested I should but like I said, more people at this party isn't going to make things jollier. Don't worry, I haven't changed my mind there.

Funnily enough, I've advised my wife that maybe she should just have written representation at the meeting, rather than being there. Then everything can be very measured, not be at risk of being overly softened by my wife's confrontation adverse nature, nor will it escalate beyond whats on the paper.

"they will always ask for a crime ref no"

But no crime has conceivably been committed, so it's a gross abuse of public resources to request one. The insurance company has no right to insist on any such thing.

"At that stage, surely I need to involve the Police, to make sure the footage is captured into evidence in the correct fashion? If you're saying the school is likely to be a clown car when it comes to handling matters like this?"

Evidence?

This is not Murder, She Wrote. You have a possible civil dispute with the school and/or parent, there is no police role here, they would hopefully tell you to stop wasting their time.

If I drove my car at high speed into the back of yours whilst in a queue of traffic and wrote it off, you'd hop out and go 'no worries mate, I'm insured, you just crack on' I suppose?

Lampygirl 3rd party insurance is compulsory for motorised vehicles because their speed and mass give them a large amount of kinetic energy meaning that if collisions happen they are likely to cause a large amount of damage. Also given that often fucking stupid humans are in charge of them, collisions are quite likely. Thus you have to be insured against the chance of you damaging someone else's property. So no, I would expect you to pay. Though frankly if you drove at speed into the back of me my first concern would be my health and my second would be trying to get the book thrown at you for your driving.

The examples I was giving were rather different. People shouldn't key cars when drunk. They shouldn't leave unsupervised toddlers to scratch stuff. They shouldn't scrape trolleys along the sides of cars and then wander off without leaving details. But they do. And whilst it's not possible to predict exactly what might happen to your car, it's easy to predict that some damage might be done to it, quite possibly by someone not insured or someone you can't catch.

So, given that some people are a bit shitty/ careless/ have vandal tendencies, do you want to take something worth around £15k and leave it parked up in public? Is there anything else you would leave in public unguarded that is worth that much? You can buy whatever expensive car you like and people should respect that. In an ideal world they would. However, we don't live in an ideal world. I personally would therefore not leave something that expensive that I cared about that much out in public. It wouldn't be my fault if something did happen but I just wouldn't want to take that risk.

@Mamamea - what word would you rather I used to describe the CCTV footage then?

Words escape me. I'm asking for views in a level headed fashion. The amount of agression I'm receiving for trying to get the best outcome for our family staggers me.

araiba AddToBasket - you know nothing, so stop posting as though you are offering a professional legal opinion and fact.

Well, er, it's fortunate that the Law Society take a different view or I'd be in the wrong job...

OP, once again, your wife will only be entitled to the excess. If you try to demand more, YABU or more correctly, you are making demands you are not entitled to make.

@AddToBasket - If you go back about 100 posts or so, I stated that's (roughly) what I'd be comfortable with, assuming the car isn't a write off.

If it is, then I'll have to look at sourcing legal expertise beyond Mumsnet. We'd be silly not to :)

OK, Lupo, here is your wife's legal position in relation to this damage (or any other):

Before she can make a claim she is legally obliged to mitigate her loss in any way she can. In practical terms, that means claiming in full for any repairs on any available insurance. Only then can she/you/anyone make a claim for an outstanding loss.

TBH, all the rest of the stuff here about how the mum is responsible/liable, or how much actual damage there is, or where to get it repaired.... irrelevant. FGS, do not make any demands/be unpleasant/talk of confrontation beyond this. You are putting the school and your wife in the wrong place.

This thread will surely out you, no?

@Myinlawsdidthisthebastard So I'm safe to ask for footage of someone else's kid then? Genuine question, as I've never had cause to and I remember some issues on our estate where people complained about photo evidence re:ASBO and minors.

To us, it is a big deal but I am aware that in the wider context, noone died. By the same measure, I'd like to minimize our outlay within reason.

(There really is no need to keeping bashing me you know. I appreciate you don't like my written style, but I frankly take umbrage at your refusal to give me the benefit of the doubt here re: my motives. I've demonstrated my intent isn't Machiavellian on multiple occasions, I hope. I'm quite literally asking questions in good faith, as I'm trying to further my understanding of what a reasonable outcome is)

"what word would you rather I used to describe the CCTV footage"

Er, footage?

You said

" the footage is captured into evidence "

What do you mean by "captured into evidence".

You have, possibly, a civil dispute. If the school is willing to confirm, in writing, that the CCTV shows said child vandalising the car, then that would be more than sufficient to satisfy the court - this is not a criminal trial.

Your car is insured, the insurer will pay whatever the costs are of repair. Work out what the extra insurance loading + excess will be, and request that the parent pays that.

Because ultimately in this situation the insurer is the one holding the risk - not you. They will very quickly assess whether there is a third party they can recover from, and it's therefore up to them to recover their cost from the parent if they think there is a case to answer. Chances are, they will not, and it will come out of their pocket.

Which just leaves you with the insurance costs to bear, which you can attempt to request from the parent - you could even institute legal proceedings (quite cheap, if you DIY), but in the circumstances that your wife is a teacher at this school, it strikes me that if she is going to continue working there, then it's best not to be suing parents for something which, in reality, she doesn't have any legal case to answer (which doesn't stop you suing, but it makes you like a prize prick if you are still working at the school).

Yes , insurance is the thing to claim from here.

Actually lupo you might hit your 1st problem with obtaining the footage - you can request a copy, and you would have to fill in the request paperwork for the relevant local authority - it's a DPA request so you need to be very specific on the reasons why you want it, what need you have for it. You will need to provide proof of your own ID and the reasons for requesting it, and if known, the details of the other parties noted in the footage. My understanding at that point, the LA may refuse to release the footage if the child's parent refuses to give permission to the footage to be released. I've had plenty of CCTV footage requests rejected for various reasons, and one of them has been because all parties captured in the footage, if identified, have to give permission to allow the footage to be released to someone else, and they either can't get a response or permission isn't given.

You really are better off getting your insurer to ask for the CCTV footage and they can then seek their legal depts view on whether this would be useful.

@addtobasket - That's a great synopsis. Thanks. I'm guessing any available insurance can include Union cover (it's been mentioned) and Home Insurance, if they accept it?

Good point about talking about future intent. Pretty certain my wife cant get into employment trouble for me 'thinking out loud' (whilst keeping everything as anonymous as I can), but it's pressure she could live without, one suspects.

Thanks for the summary.

Or do what mamamea suggests - the statement describing the content would probably be the simplest way around that problem. I have had CI's go out and view footage & their written description is almost as good as getting the footage itself.

@Myinlawsdidthisthebastards - well thank you for you input. Genuinely.

Quite hard for me to be able to express that when you've leveled a number of posts at me telling me off for my tone, I'm sure you can appreciate?

It's certainly given me food for thought, which was the mission objective for this post.

Before she can make a claim she is legally obliged to mitigate her loss in any way she can. In practical terms, that means claiming in full for any repairs on any available insurance. Only then can she/you/anyone make a claim for an outstanding loss.
This is wrong. Claiming from the insurance does not mitigate the loss. The loss is still the same it's just the insurer is paying it instead and the insurer is entitled to recover it from the mum. In this circumstance mitigating the loss would be not increasing it by for example getting taxis instead of driving a scratched car or using the most expensive repairer you can find. It means keeping the loss to a reasonable minimum.

OMG Gabilan my (okay DHs) car is worth way more than £15k. We have this car because it is the perfect size for our needs, economical for its size, comfortable, and (of huge importance to us) it is safe (as in if some lunatic drives into us we are more protected than in some other cars). If I can't park this in shopping centre car parks, the staff car park (I too work in a school) and even on the street when I visit friends and family, then there is something VERY wrong.

OP chooses to have a nice car and that is his right. A rusty old banger may be cheap but is it roadworthy?

If you really want to minimise stress to all parties I think you also need to be prepared to get quotes from cheaper garages if the suggestion is the mum will have to pay the bill. Getting a quote for £6,000 isn't exactly going to be a stress-free experience.
It's a myth that main dealers are always the best, you could find a smaller independent bodyshop which will do as good a job for a fraction of the price. You should be able to get a whole respray for less than £2,000. (My brother works for a main dealer - before I'm accused of being naive.)

I think you can only go of who is legally liable for this damage. Doesn't seem to be the parents if the child is four. Depends on what the school's insurance says. It isn't fair but it doesn't look to me like you have much comeback. But you need legal advice on your rights.

Can I take that last pound instead? We could put it towards our excess?