To expect Mum to pay up after 4YO child scratched every panel on our car

[LupoLoopy]

Context: My wife works at a nursery school as an assistant.. Her car was parked in the staff car park, which the kids egress though when they leave, under parental supervision.

During lunch time pick-up, one of the departing 4 year old's took a rock and scratched every panel and light fixture on her car, all whilst his Mum was standing within 6M of the car, chatting to a friend.

The incident was captured on CCTV.

The cost of a proper repair is so close to the value of the car, I fear it being written off, which is something we could afford but would hurt us a lot financially.

Although the damage is only cosmetic, the car was pristine before the incident (I'm a fussy sod who takes good care of his stuff) and I don't see why we should tolerate driving a 'shed' around 'for the children'.

We're trying to seek restitution from the School's insurance (if it will cover it) but to cover our butts, we've reported the incident to the police (so and official record exists) and reported it to our insurer.

If we have to use our car insurance AND we're fortunate enough to not have the car written off, it's going to tank my partners insurance premiums.

Frankly, I want to encourage the police to be fully involved and start proceedings immediately for civil action via the small claims court. I just dont think I can have confidence that Mum is going to be wired in the same way I am - i.e. it's her liability and don't see why we should be financially crippled by her parental inattention.

AIBU?

Though I don't think you're being at all unreasonable, I do think you're probably being unrealistic.

I wouldn't let my child roam around unwatched in a car park so this is purely a 'what if' exercise. But...

If it were my child, I'd be mortified. I'd also be unable to pay. If 8k is a realistic figure, it would take me approximately 26.5 years to pay you. That's £25 each month, which is all I could currently guarantee on my very tight budget and some months, even that would be an issue. I don't have home insurance so no personal liability cover. I couldn't get a loan for that amount. I don't have a partner who could help pay and DD's dad paying it is a laughable concept.

I'd offer to pay the insurance excess in as large installments as I could manage. It's what insurance is there for.

As an aside (and I'm aware that saying this probably makes me a massive twat), you obviously very much like your car. I have things that are precious to me too so I do get that. But cars are often left parked in public places where they can very easily receive cosmetic damage. If how your car looks is really 8k's worth of important to you, perhaps it would be a more sensible to drive a car with a more cheaply repaired paint job? Or is that particular paint job part of the appeal?

But 8k of cosmetic damage?
I worked to have a new car. If someone caused damage I should just have a cheapo repair and suck it up that it wasn't how it was? That's like sorry I put a scratch on your brand new Ferrari, here's some t cut to fix it!

MsJamieFraser

As does mine this didn't take a few seconds whether "seemingly" or not. The parent wasn't paying attention.

@anotheraGoThandle :)

I dont want to 'get blood out of a stone'. If it would cripple her to pay it, then we'll swallow. I wouldnt want to destroy someone's life over a car.

The 'justice' I'd want in those circumstances is that they understand the damage they've done and that Mum is educated somewhat on what could have happened through her inattention in a car park. For everyone's sake. I hope that doesnt make me sound like a 'massive twat'. :)

That said, if they're well enough off to pay it, I feel they should.

'It' is a loose definition. Excess, plus a nominal contribution to premium uplifts would suffice, assuming it isn't a write off.

If it is a write-off, then I'm at a bit of a loss, frankly. I guess I take the settlement, buy the car back and drive it around scratched. It'll rankle, but there's so much value left in the car doing anything else would be madness.

My concern here is that someone who can afford to pay, or may even have insurance which covers it, tries to swing it so they don't. Fearing the worst response from them, but hopefully my (more positive) DW can get a nice result off them come next week

Yes, I really like my cars! Always have - we all have a passion and its not always rational. Getting a beater for the work commute could be a practical answer, let's face it, wherever this lands.

I haven't said otherwise Boney I don't think anyone on this thread has said otherwise either.

Is your wife a member of a union? My car was scratched by a kid in school along with other teachers cars and my Union paid for it.

Hopefully you'll be able to hit that point home in the meeting next week...and nope, it doesn't make you sound a massive twat a car park isn't the place to take your eyes off a small child and she could definitely use a reminder of that.

My bet is she'll try to be reasonable until she hears the 8k figure (so please do get at least one quote to show her). She'll not want to show herself up in front of the people who look after her child. But unless she and/or her DP are in very good jobs chances are they won't be in a position to part with an unexpected 8k. I think having a quote with you would make her more likely to look into getting her home insurance to cover it if she has any.

Getting a banger would definitely serve you well

I had a bump on a front panel it looked like nothing I honestly expected it to be £500-£600. It needed a new panel and some structural work and was close to 2k. I can't believe this happened to you!! I would be fuming! Hope it your not out of pocket for this

Also. As a mum of a 4yr old. My child would know not to do this, know or is wrong and I'm concerned about their behaviour!

Well, the mum almost certainly can't pay - who has 5k waiting to be put to repairing someone else's car? No-one, that's why we're obliged to have insurance.

Your wife is right to be cautious, the school could get into trouble if it (or staff) make demands that they aren't entitled to make. TBH, from your posts it doesn't seem as though you have considered this. You cannot DEMAND the money because you FEEL she SHOULD pay it - or the police will be visiting you.

In this situation, your wife should claim against the school, assuming the damage happened on school property. They do have insurance and will be covered.

I think (not checked) that you can try the Motor Insurers' Bureau. It exists - and increases motor insurance premiums - to pay out for damage caused by the uninsured.

Try the mother first, if she can't pay then try the MIB or your own insurance (not clear if you have fully comp?), if she won't pay then try small claims. FWIW as the owner and former owner of a number of cars that have needed attention to their paintwork, £5k plus for multiple panels even for a light scratch wouldn't surprise me.

Can easily go over the cost of the car. I had 2 debts put in my car by one of the midwives at my GP surgery because she squeezed her Chelsea taxi into a tight space next to my car and then slammed the door open into my car leaving a dent and a scratch where she forces it open further against my car. To have the dent pulled and the panel respected it cost her £400. She agreed to pay then blocked my numbers and wouldn't hand over the cash. It was only when I left a scathing message with the gossipy receptionist that either she handed over the money or I would be involving the police and having her done for criminal damage that she finally paid up. Had I gone through my insurance they would have written my car off.

Hey @AddToBasket - I've no intention of demanding money directly. That's insane! I'm verbalizing what I'd consider to be a fair result.

If comes down to 'demands', it'll be done via the courts.

...and only if we cant settle it out via...

1. The school's insurance
2. The Union
3. Our insurance (with no write off)

i.e. if we can settle this without it going nuclear, we will. I just want to make sure we've covered our bases.

The parent is coming in for a meeting, as is standard practice for an incident of this nature. If she doesnt seem forthcoming when my wife describes what happens, we'll reassess. I wont be there - I'm a stakeholder in my household, but I aint sod all to do with the school and it should remain that way.

My wife is a saint when it comes to conflict, so I am 100% confident she wont say anything silly to Mum to undercut her professional position. 10+ yrs of experience helps there.

If the school lays off my wife for pursuing Mum through the civil courts (should it prove necessary mind) then I will explicitly question the legality of that and I guess the borough's Council Tax will be paying out a unfair dismissal settlement. Not exactly the result we're looking for on ANY level, but I fail to see why we should be pressured into being rolled over

I think you're being quite reasonable.

The insurers required a ref from the cops, so he got one.
He and his wife have discussed his change of employment, and are also talking about the possibility of her changing employment. They have moved house, and the commute (and therefore costs) have changed. She is already considering changing her job as a result, and now her car has been damaged through the inattention of a person she is in contact with every day. The costs are significant.

There will be a quote for repairs coming on Monday. I think there's a meeting the mum on Tuesday. Nothing will be decided vis a vis the car until then. The wife's employment will be subject to ongoing discussions for some time, I expect.

None of this is unreasonable. I see no monsters.

My ds did this to our car, it was parked inside our gated driveway, he was playing in the garden and drew pictures all over the car, every panel. I wasn't watching, assumed he was in his sandpit. You live and learn.

I don't know how insurance etc works but if you think some of the lighter scratches will t-cut out, why not do it, then get the mum to pay for the paneks with the deeper scratches?

Don't tell me off if it's not feasible, I'm just suggesting a compromise. My son could have easily done this at 4, had I taken my eyes off him in a car park for long enough. He's since been diagnosed as autistic (not just naughty)

@James.... No telling off from me. You're asking questions and making suggestions and I havent given you pictures, so I understand you querying.

I wont t-cut any panels myself before Monday) as if Mum proves mega-awkward in-extremis, we'll need a record (from the spray shops) of the damage done to fall back on, if it goes wretched.

That said, if we can effect an economical repair (via professional means) which doesn't devalue the vehicle, or weaken our fallback position we will.

I'm calming somewhat, time being what it is. If her response next week is reasonable (the primary measure of that being remorse and understanding of how bad the situation is), based on my wife's report, I'll be happier.

I'm ultimately less fearful of the financial consequences now. Noone died, let's face it.

The adrenaline had to stop pumping at some point.

"WTF should people not be allowed to have a nice car in case other people damage it and shock horror are expected to bear the costs of their i attention/actions"

There was a thread on here a while ago in which a poster said a woman in a restaurant had had a go at her because the OP's toddler wiped his mouth on the woman's light grey coatagan. The general consensus seemed to be that kids do this stuff and she should suck up the cost of the cleaning/ not wear things that needed dry cleaning.

There was another thread in which a woman described falling over on a wet day whilst wearing a grey suede coat and was soundly told that it was a stupid thing to wear on a wet day. Now they are different situations in many ways but they do seem to indicate that most things in life can get wrecked and you really are better off trying to find something that is relatively practical.

Now you can buy whatever car you like. You can have it coated in pearlescent metallic paint. But then you're driving it alongside other vehicles with a huge amount of kinetic energy and potential to do damage. That's aside from things like drunks with keys and an odd sense of humour. Random vandals with a bit of a grudge and a rock. And then there are 4 year olds with the strength of Samson. You can have what car you like - but then you need to have insurance to accommodate the fact that all kinds of stuff could happen to it.

I think the OP should definitely pursue the mother whilst covering all the 'legal' bases in the mean time.

Gabilan, I have a range of insurances to cover damage I (or my family/pets) might to do others, to put them back to the position they were in before I fucked up. If I crash my own car into my own wall then its my own problem to decide what to do with it, same if I fall over and my coat gets damaged. If you damaged my car or coat or anything else, I'd expect you to be insured (or have a large pot of money) to return me to the point at which I was before you fucked up.

If I can't work out who was responsible, then they have got lucky and thankfully as a last resort I will also have covered myself against the carelessness of others, but if I know if was you, and have evidence to support that, I expect you to put me back to where I was.

If I drove my car at high speed into the back of yours whilst in a queue of traffic and wrote it off, you'd hop out and go 'no worries mate, I'm insured, you just crack on' I suppose?

Well, the mum won't be being 'mega awkward' if she says no to paying anything. She doesn't have to pay. You're wife and the school will need to be very aware of that. Do not bully her, or imply she needs to do something that she doesn't.

You don't actually have the option of 'going nuclear', since you are obliged to have insurance to cover this. That means you don't have a loss apart from the excess and the excess is the very best you can hope for. If I were you, that is all I would ask her for. Legally, your wife is entitled to nothing else.

As for a rise in insurance premiums, that's not considered a loss because it was just a chance that you might not have an accident. No preimplantation or amount is guaranteed.

Sorry, this is what insurance is for. Of course, you absolutely cannot entertain this woman actually paying for the repair. It would be totally disproportionate. Again, that is the point of insurance.

*premium (not preimplantation!)

I asked upthread but I still don't understand why a nursery would have an exit through a car park? I have never come across this.

Guess it depends on the site, doesn't it Furious. Different country but both the preschools/nurseries that my DSs have been to had exit through the carpark, because in both cases they were set back from the pavement and parking was in front of them. One is a big carpark, the other is more of a driveway.

So just because you've never come across it, doesn't make it an impossibility. The preschool with the big carpark has socking great signs all over the gates, and swimmingpool style gates, to warn parents to hold onto their children and to prevent accidental escape of children into the carpark; but ultimately it is of course the parents' responsibility to keep their child(ren) safe and under observation once past the gate.

Yes the mum should pay, if it was my child i would of offered there and then. God knows how many other cars hes done this too

AddToBasket - you know nothing, so stop posting as though you are offering a professional legal opinion and fact.

just for one thing you are clearly wrong about- the minimum legal level of insurance for a car is third party- so they pay out if you damage someoneelses property but will not cover your own. What would you advise op to do if he has third party insurance only? actually, no, probably best not to ask as all you would get is wrong, terrible advice

YANBU.