to put this in my reply?

[creampie]

At the risk of outing myself I've changed a few details but the jist is the same.

I teach med students. One of their projects is a tutorial in which they interview real patients in a class room setting. This week is dementia week and I had a gentleman patient and his wife attend.

One of the female students arrived wearing an outfit that looked like she'd just come from the gym, Lycra leggings and neon racer back vest. They are more than aware that these are real patients, not actors, and that a degree of professionalism is required.

I should have turned her away but these are mandatory and she would have been in trouble with her tutor so I let it slide.

When it was her turn to interview the man made a few inappropriate comments. Nothing awful, no swearing, but along the lines of "you'll never drown" and "I can almost see what you had for breakfast"

I intervened and sent her back to her seat.

She has now formally complained about the patients attitude and that I embarrassed her in front of the class. I simply said, let's call it a day there, you can return to your seat. Nothing more.

I am livid. The formal reply I've written is along the lines of sorry you were embarrassed, but what the fuck do you expect if you have the disrespect to turn up dressed like that. Only in flowerier terms, obviously. I can't believe she's got the audacity and lack of insight to complain about this.

I really want to send it. However, I'm concerned some PC person in HR will accuse me of victim blaming. Would IBU to send this? What would you do?

Not that I don't agree she was inappropriately dressed - I absolutely do! But that's not something to bring up in a formal complaint.

TrinityForce medical students are constantly reminded about appropriate dress.

A male student wouldn't be tolerated wearing vest and shorts for a clinical placement.

Presumably this interview in the classroom setting was to learn or practise communication techniques? If so, being able to use effective strategies to deal with inappropriate comments from a dementia patient are just as important as gleaning medical information and, as others have said, the behaviour in itself could be used as part of the assessment.

She wasn't able to deal with the patient and now can't deal with the fact that she did poorly. Highly academic students are unused to failing or doing poorly so can find it hard to accept.

Her clothing was totally inappropriate and demonstrated she wasn't taking this seriously. She needs to hear this in person rather than an email. Offer to set up an appointment to discuss her concerns and if possible include her tutor. She sounds immature and stroppy but hopefully she can improve on this.

I apologise if I caused offence. I totally missed that the patient had dementia in the OP.

She should be able to wear what she wants without being sexually harassed, BUT she should also know enough about patients and dementia to know that this wasn't his fault

She wasn't sexually harassed, ffs! And no, you can't wear whatever you want, whenever you want, lets not pretend we don' know that.

I'm afraid I feel it's really inappropriate to use people with dementia like this! How patronising!

Both the patient and his wife would have volunteered to take part in such training. Lots of paperwork, lots of legalities, ethics boards etc etc etc. Not just "Oh sweety, turn up tomorrow, it will be fun"

Many people with a wide variety of illnesses do such stuff. It's how doctors learn, they practice on patients, in class, in hospitals and many other settings, for very many years, with varying degrees of mentoring/observation!

She's preempting a challenge to her 'fail' mark for your class. Complaining about a dementia patient's attitude is a bit like moaning about a stab victim bleeding on you. Get all of the professional advice you can.

One man with korsakoffs syndrome used to call me a foul cunt and a thick twat every night whilst myself and my colleges were changing him and helping him get ready for bed whilst dodging his punches that's what it's like sometimes with some people who have severe dementia.

I'm afraid I feel it's really inappropriate to use people with dementia like this

How else will a medical student learn?

I agree that the two issues should be dealt with separately. Yes, the man can't be held responsible for his comments in the way that a healthy person could, and she's going to have to learn to deal with that if she's going to be a doctor.

But it's not the fault of what she was wearing. That, to me, steers perilously close to "You were asking for it, wearing that".

But again, that does sound like an unprofessional way to dress, and should be dealt with separately.

Go with OurBlanche's reply. It's perfect.

I don't know needs, but the whole setup sounds pretty horrible on both sides.

I agree with stubbornstains, though.

leave the clothing out of it and focus on your impression that she seemed flustered so you cut the exercise short to save further embarrassment, and that shethe studentcould benefit from a greater understanding of what to expect with dementia patients.

I think this is excellent advice. You can mention her dress informally or to her tutor or other advisor, or perhaps have a general email go out to all students reminding them of the unwritten (or written!) dress code for clinical settings. I've lived with medical students and they would dress as if for a smart office when going into a hospital.

She should have more respect for patients.....you should have failed her! Obviously too late for that now.....but she'll get hell from consultants if she turns up on the wards with an attitude / dressed like that!!....hell mend her!

The clothing can't be ignored completely, the student knew she would be dealing with real patients in a controlled environment. It is another example of her being unprepared for the work she is undertaking.

She needs to be told that
a) she should have dressed more appropriately, and
b) in this instance it was the root cause of her not being able to complete the task

OP needn't feel too bad about not having been strict enough to send the student awa. That was a lapse of judgement I bet she won't make again. Her job now is to ensure that the student learns a similar level of reflection and comes to the same decision.

I'd speak to her tutor in person but seriously, yeah, you should have sent her out and if that meant she got in trouble with her tutor, so be it. Completely unprofessional clothing. Perhaps the team needs to pass a stricter dress code.

You'd think people would be more aware (bar those with SN who might need to be told more clearly), but you'd be amazed. I worked in the legal department of a major securities company and we had to re-draft our dress code to specifically include pool and beachwear (and enumerate as many as possible) and gymwear as well.

In our department, we had a temp turn up for work in lycra bike shorts, a vest top and flip flops. In a law department. To work as a legal secretary. I mean, c'mon, for real?

You don't say how she was handling the interview, just that the man made inappropriate comments and you intervened.

How was she handling it? Was she any good? Did you give her a chance?

Sorry, exclude pool and beachwear and gymwear.

She failed on a few counts -

• inappropriate clothes
• unrealistic expectations of dementia patients
• being unable to deal with the patient, and thus inappropriate.

Was she the only one who failed? Either email her or arrange to meet her face to dace to discuss, either by herself or with others.

Part of bring armed student is learning job to present yourself and handle patients - not just revise from books - and it sounds like she needs to learn both.

Inappropriate behaviour
Face to face

I assume you have to respond formally to whoever she made the complaint to?

I would suggest a purely factual response along the lines of your original post. Set out that the students knew that they would be dealing with a person with dementia and that he was likely to be disinhibited; they knew this would not be an actor and that they should dress professionally, as they would if dealing with patients in a professional setting; that she did not do so; that she seemed to be flustered by the man's presentation and unable to handle it; and that you cut the presentation short for her sake. Don't put in anything resembling an apology. Say that you are concerned that, as an aspiring doctor, she feels it appropriate to complain about behaviour which, to her knowledge, was the direct result of the man's illness; and point out that it is your professional duty to prepare students to deal with people with conditions like this. Obviously set out that this is (I assume) standard teaching practice recognised all over the UK.

If you know her other tutors, it would be helpful to talk to them about whether she has form for this type of thing and whether she is generally so immature in her approach to patient care.

Either her clothing was inappropriate or not & if it was then you shouldn't have "let it slide" imo.

How was she dealing with the patient's comments?

Such that cutting the interview short was the only option?

She's complained about the patient?

Is that allowed?

These people have given up their time for the sake of her training & education & she q=wants to complain?

If I went to see a doctor and they were dressed like this student or the male equivalent I'd ask them if they were having a fucking laugh.

That said, unless there's a dress code in place, be very careful if you mention how she was dressed. You could put yourself in a very vulnerable position so without a dress code, consult both HR and her tutor.

About her attitude towards the patient and you ending her participation, be honest with her. She was failing to control the situation and you stepped in to prevent escalation. She absolutely must learn not to take to heart anything that comes out of a dementia patient's mouth. And her ability to deal with the poor behaviour of any patient needs to improve. Offer help in learning how to react. Copy her tutor into your reply. If she can't do that then working with patients simply isn't for her.

By the way, I have respect for anyone who deals with patients with dementia, especially the rude, aggressive or sweary.