to put this in my reply?

[creampie]

At the risk of outing myself I've changed a few details but the jist is the same.

I teach med students. One of their projects is a tutorial in which they interview real patients in a class room setting. This week is dementia week and I had a gentleman patient and his wife attend.

One of the female students arrived wearing an outfit that looked like she'd just come from the gym, Lycra leggings and neon racer back vest. They are more than aware that these are real patients, not actors, and that a degree of professionalism is required.

I should have turned her away but these are mandatory and she would have been in trouble with her tutor so I let it slide.

When it was her turn to interview the man made a few inappropriate comments. Nothing awful, no swearing, but along the lines of "you'll never drown" and "I can almost see what you had for breakfast"

I intervened and sent her back to her seat.

She has now formally complained about the patients attitude and that I embarrassed her in front of the class. I simply said, let's call it a day there, you can return to your seat. Nothing more.

I am livid. The formal reply I've written is along the lines of sorry you were embarrassed, but what the fuck do you expect if you have the disrespect to turn up dressed like that. Only in flowerier terms, obviously. I can't believe she's got the audacity and lack of insight to complain about this.

I really want to send it. However, I'm concerned some PC person in HR will accuse me of victim blaming. Would IBU to send this? What would you do?

The ignorance on here of te impact of dementia is fucking terrifying.
Please god you are never in a role that involves caring for people with dementia.
Go fucking educate yourselves.

www.alzheimers.org.uk/professionals

I'm sorry but I am at some of the responses and at the attitude of this woman.
And she is wanting to be a GP some day? God I fear for her patients if she doesn't get her acts together.

It takes a lot of courage to be happy to be sitting in front of a big group of students to be 'observed' under a microscope like this. If you ever have been someone who has been a patient at a student clinic, you will know (I'm not talking about your registrar or a junior doctor there. They've already had plenty of experience).
The comments she made (I can see what you've had for breakfast) are at the very least rude and she needs to be pulled up on it.
She was also rude by turning up dressed like this. Would she accept her own GP turning up in sport gear?

Unfortunately, it seems that sort of attitude (you've made me feel bad in front of others) is a quite common one now from students.
I have no idea how you can deal with it and yes I think running your answer through colleagues is a good idea. As well as having a weird with whoever is in charge.
As for her putting a complaint... If it had been a patient in a surgery, it would have been the patient putting a complaint in and with good reasons. What's would she have done then?

I'm stunned that some posters are blaming the man who has dementia, not the young medical student who was dressed inappropriately and who also got flustered. I'm not a medical professional but even I know that people with dementia have no filter and that you shouldn't take their comments to heart.

I pray to god that the posters who believe that the man is in the wrong never have to deal with dementia.

Rosie, very interesting thought. Yes that might well have been what she's doing.

Also agree with MrsDeVere

"No medical professional (or any other job, obviously) should have to tolerate personal comments about his or her appearance"

Sure, and and we should have our housework done by tweeting bluebirds and friendly deer, a la a Disney film. Meanwhile, in the real world...

There's no call for the sneery sarcasm, AndTakeYourPenguin. Bluebirds don't do my housework, but in the real world, if one of my colleagues, my students or their parents passed a comment on any aspect of my appearance, they'd get a warning followed by a bollocking.

Has the student identified a genuine gap in the training (ie how to deal with a difficult/disrespectful patient) or is she merely trying to obscure a gap in her own preparation/study?

"No medical professional (or any other job, obviously) should have to tolerate personal comments about his or her appearance"

Sure, and and we should have our housework done by tweeting bluebirds and friendly deer, a la a Disney film. Meanwhile, in the real world...

There's no call for the sneery sarcasm, AndTakeYourPenguin. Bluebirds don't do my housework, but in the real world, if one of my colleagues, my students or their parents passed a comment on any aspect of my appearance, they'd get a warning followed by a bollocking.

Has the student identified a genuine gap in the training (ie how to deal with a difficult/disrespectful patient) or is she merely trying to obscure a gap in her own preparation/study?

"No medical professional (or any other job, obviously) should have to tolerate personal comments about his or her appearance"

Sure, and and we should have our housework done by tweeting bluebirds and friendly deer, a la a Disney film. Meanwhile, in the real world...

There's no call for the sneery sarcasm, AndTakeYourPenguin. Bluebirds don't do my housework, but in the real world, if one of my colleagues, my students or their parents passed a comment on any aspect of my appearance, they'd get a warning followed by a bollocking.

Has the student identified a genuine gap in the training (ie how to deal with a difficult/disrespectful patient) or is she merely trying to obscure a gap in her own preparation/study?

But the man wasn't a student, he was a patient with dementia!

Are people really this ignorant about dementia or is it because he's a man so he must be in the wrong regardless?

What the hell is she going to be like in A&E or a acute admissions ward ? She needs to grow a much thicker skin and fast . She also needs to know how to communicate with the confused , that does not just mean people with dementia , that means every single person who is suffering a potentially life threatening event , it is no good getting flustered if they make a comment about your appearance , you need to be able to get information out of people ASAP without getting bogged down in personalities .

MrsDeVere perfectly put!

Everyone saying her outfit "led to" his comments, it does look like victim blaming. You're saying the narrative is:

• woman dresses in a particular way
• man inevitably thinks misogynist things about her
• because in this case he has no filter, he says them

The point I think those of us who are saying the dress code and the response to dementia patients being abusive are separate issues are trying to make is this: it is not just that a healthy, intelligent and thoughtful person could have avoided saying those things to her, he could have avoided thinking them.

Obviously it's too late for him now, and I don't think anyone is proposing explaining it to him. But recognising that there's no point taking it up with him does not mean we have to blame her for what he thought and said.

Suggesting she is entirely at fault for the way she dressed sends a message to everyone who's ever been sexually threatened that it's their fault the person involved didn't think of them as a human being. And to abusive men, the message is that there is nothing wrong with the way they think of women - that all men, inevitably, see women this way, it's just that some of them conceal it better.

It is reasonable to advise all your students on professional, respectable dress and its effect on their credibility. It's also a good idea to talk to all of them about this particular challenge with dementia patients voicing abusive thoughts. It is not reasonable to advise this one student in particular to look less sexy / obviously female in future.

I don't work with dementia patients though. I educate children, both in an academic discipline and in social behaviour. I would warn someone that if they make a personal comment a second time, there will be a consequence. Conversely, I would not pass comment on the personal appearance of a student, parent or colleague as that would be unprofessional.

I know, however, (and I'm not training to be a health professional) that there are conditons that might result in a patient saying something "offensive". Dementia, Tourettes, etc.So I wouldn't have taken it personally if I were the student. That doesn't mean we want to teach med students that they have to put up with rude behaviour from patients as a rule. That would be like me mentoring a young teacher and telling them they had to tolerate bad behaviour from kids because it's part and parcel of teaching.

It is not reasonable to advise this one student in particular to look less sexy / obviously female in future

No one said anything about her looking sexy! She was wearing gym clothes to a clinical!

Also all medical students will be well versed in appropriate attire, not just the women.

But expotition if someone is demented , in that part of their brain is basically gone , how can they be blamed , they do not have the capability of using it all anymore , it is gone , vamooshed , dead , never to return . Can you honestly hand on heart say that you would never say or think anything untoward if a bit of your brain was missing ? I know I couldn't make such a promise .

Whilst theoretical debate is all well and good, this is the real world and you have extrapolated an awful lot which isn't even implied in the OP.

As a professional it is important to consider how we present ourselves, because the way that we present ourself gives messages about our intentions. She was dressed as if she was going to the gym, not interviewing a patient.

Equally, wearing skin tight exercise gear reveals body shape, if it were a man wearing a lycra onsie the issue would be exactly the same (I went to a running shop the other day and had to stifle giggles because the assistant was wearing lycra cycling shorts and was doing mini lunges - if I had dementia I might not have stifled the giggles), it is inappropriate in the extreme to wear this unless you work in a gym.

Reread my post. I'm not saying he was to blame. I'm saying that neither was she, for the sexist abuse.

Dressing professionally is advisable. But it doesn't protect anyone from sexual harrassment. Let's not conflate the issues.

Could you ask among colleagues for further examples of 'offensive' or 'inappropriate' interactions from similar patients and maybe use them in a lesson as a 'how might you respond if a patient with dementia said something like this?' type of lesson?
As many people have said, this is something that she, and I suspect all of her fellow students will have to learn to deal with.

Every medical school will have a dress code for students to remind them what wear in clinical situations
I suggest you google the one for your med school and attach it to your reply

I am a HCP and her dress was completely inappropriate - generally jeans, T shirts, leggings and anything at all revealing is deemed unsuitable for a clinical situation.

The fact that the patient behaved inappropriately is irrelevant - there is nothing that can be done to prevent his behaviour from being inappropriate (particularly given his diagnosis) but she should learn that there is plenty that she could do to prevent this. The responsibility for the situation needs to be firmly placed in her court.

The only other issue is whether if this happens again you simply tell the student male or female that they cannot have patient contact if they don't comply with the university dress code regardless of the mandatory nature of the tutorial.