to put this in my reply?

[creampie]

At the risk of outing myself I've changed a few details but the jist is the same.

I teach med students. One of their projects is a tutorial in which they interview real patients in a class room setting. This week is dementia week and I had a gentleman patient and his wife attend.

One of the female students arrived wearing an outfit that looked like she'd just come from the gym, Lycra leggings and neon racer back vest. They are more than aware that these are real patients, not actors, and that a degree of professionalism is required.

I should have turned her away but these are mandatory and she would have been in trouble with her tutor so I let it slide.

When it was her turn to interview the man made a few inappropriate comments. Nothing awful, no swearing, but along the lines of "you'll never drown" and "I can almost see what you had for breakfast"

I intervened and sent her back to her seat.

She has now formally complained about the patients attitude and that I embarrassed her in front of the class. I simply said, let's call it a day there, you can return to your seat. Nothing more.

I am livid. The formal reply I've written is along the lines of sorry you were embarrassed, but what the fuck do you expect if you have the disrespect to turn up dressed like that. Only in flowerier terms, obviously. I can't believe she's got the audacity and lack of insight to complain about this.

I really want to send it. However, I'm concerned some PC person in HR will accuse me of victim blaming. Would IBU to send this? What would you do?

This could've happened just as easily over something that was entirely out of her control such as large breasts or acne- or anything really. My grandfather has become shockingly openly racist since developing dementia.

She needs to learn to deal with it if she's going to be working with dementia patients in the future.

But possibly so do you. Would you have reacted differently if he'd picked on her for having ginger hair or whatevs?

She was a bit silly to take offence yes.

Are you allowed to send a reply? Would it affect the complaint as such?

I would roll with that rather than the students attire too much, apologise for any embarrassment and if you have to say about her clothing then say it more like, being an older generation he is not used to such attire. But saying she shouldn't be dressed such a way with no set uniform can be a slippery slope to to deserved it because of how you were dressed so I would leave it

Run it past HR before you send it.

And age and immaturity is no excuse I started training to be a mental health nurse at 19 and prior to that I worked in a nursing home people with dementia can lose their inhibitions I have had all sorts of comments often down right rude over the years but you just have to learn how to deal with them professionally.

I wouldn't reply by email. I'd call her in, talk things over, then perhaps send an email saying "as discussed". Maybe have someone else in the room if you're worried about her calling you victim-blaming afterwards?

Basically keep it factual, don't reply in anger. Happy to help check something and take the emotion out if that would help?

God no, don't apologise for anything! The daft mare turned up in unprofessional clothes and then complained about comments on her clothes from a patient with dementia, who was presumably doing your class a favour by attending at all.
She should fail. And be told that she can't be complaining about that!

I am also at people judging the man with dementia for saying something hurtful. Including her of course.Is there some misunderstanding of what dementia entails?

I wouldn't focus on what she was wearing. Doctors come in all shapes, sizes, and clothing. Emergencies, etc.

Though I do agree she wasn't dressed professionally for the class, as she wouldn't dress that way for patient contact generally, one hopes.

My point is to leave the clothing out of it and focus on your impression that she seemed flustered so you cut the exercise short to save further embarrassment, and that shethe studentcould benefit from a greater understanding of what to expect with dementia patients.

Dementia. It's all there in the word.

No medical professional (or any other job, obviously) should have to tolerate personal comments about his or her appearance. It is unacceptable whether it was about her clothes or her ethnicity. Your ending the session didn't condemn either doctor or patient, so on the face of it was the best response in the situation.

That said, you can't be expected to tell off a patient with dementia and she needs to develop a bit of resilience and a link with real life, including professional dress standards. Wear gym gear but throw on a set of scrubs or a white coat maybe?

OurBlanche spot on.

And on reflection I agree that this should be done face to face. Ideally with someone else there as witness / note taker.

Sexual harassment..... do me a favour.

She is in the wrong job..

Betty do you have any experience of someone with dementia. I suggest you educate yourself on the condition before posting about it.

Of course dementia pts should be told not to be so so rude Betty but often loss of inhibitions d and rudeness comes as part of the illness one man I nursed made some shockingly perverse comments really ,really bad and he was told but two minutes later would make a comment that was even worse he only started making those kind of comments after he became unwell.

No medical professional (or any other job, obviously) should have to tolerate personal comments about his or her appearance

Sure, and and we should have our housework done by tweeting bluebirds and friendly deer, a la a Disney film. Meanwhile, in the real world.....

AndTakeYourpenguin.

if I went to see a doctor and he/she was dressed the way you describe, I would think it was scruffy, inappropriate disrespectful and I would question their professionalism. I would not say any of this to them, because I do not have dementia.

She sounds very unaware of what is appropriate in her appearance

I am totally, utterly flabbergasted that anyone thinks the patient is in the wrong here. He has bloody dementia! As in, at some point - and presumably he has reached that point - he no longer knows what is socially acceptable. The fact that a potential doctor has decided to formally complain about an actual symptom of the illness he's under care for, is just beyond me.

OP I would focus on the student's complaint and leave all talk of clothing aside. If she turns up inappropriately dressed again then deal with it at the time. Give her the benefit of the doubt on this occasion and tackle the real issue, which is the complaint and what I would call her lack of judgement.

I would have serious concerns about her professionalism. For a start, you should always dress in a respectful way, and regardless of how skimpy it was, wearing gym wear to meet a patient is totally unacceptable.

I would meet with whoever she emailed and discuss it in person before committing anything in writing.

I'm aghast that this student thought her attire was in any way appropriate!

There are strict rules that apply to medical students regarding their appearance and behaviour.

Had she come from the gym? Why on either didn't she shower and change into fresh clothes before clinicals !?!

There would be no issue with you reminding her of her University's and/or hospitals policy for students appearance but run it by your manager first.

she wouldn't dress that way for patient contact generally,

but she was in contact with a patient, a real one, albeit in a training capacity

AndTakeYourPenguin

I don't think the patient was in the wrong, or the student. She's a student, she'll learn how to dress appropriately and apparently needs some guidance on it - definitely mention it to her/the class.

You really have two issues here and I think the clothing should take a back seat. Don't email her other than to invite her to a face to face meeting to discuss. It is ridiculous that she is so unaware as to not know that dementia patients lack social inhibition. You need to deal with that and her bad handling of the consultation as the primary issue. The inappropriate clothing issue is important and relevant but, imo, should be secondary to her basic failings in the role of Doctor. Would it be worth running it by a colleague to see if you really should have just turned her away? She sounds like an entitled little madam!

I don't think you should mention her clothing.

She should be able to wear what she wants without being sexually harassed, BUT she should also know enough about patients and dementia to know that this wasn't his fault.

Do you have any uniform code? Lycra leggings and racer back vests are very fashionable right now (Beyoncé's athletics collection is the cause, I think) and if there's no dress code, I suppose she technically did nothing wrong.

I'm afraid I feel it's really inappropriate to use people with dementia like this!