to think the current NHS guidelines for alcohol and breastfeeding are batshit and not conducive to long term breastfeeding

[lemonadey]

I was at a wedding on Saturday, I took 6m old dd but me and dh decided he would be the one "on shift" and I would have a few drinks as its been a while (dd is a bottle refuser) over the course of the day I drank quite a few glasses of prosecco (I didn't count but by the end of the day it probably amounted to about a bottle) but obviously still bf dd at points and I got pretty fed up of the amount of people quite openly shocked at me breastfeeding and drinking. I do get it, the nhs guidelines are basically the same as if you're pregnant even though the way alcohol transfers to the baby is completely different and the amount of alcohol that enters your breastmilk is negligible.

I just feel it is another way for women to feel like their life is "on hold" while breastfeeding, my mum breastfed me and said she never gave a second thought to what she ate or drank and it was a really enjoyable experience for her, it was part of her life, she never expressed or "pumped and dumped".

I wish more women realised you can still have a social life that includes drinking whilst breastfeeding, the current guidelines are so ridiculously strict and just result in judging from other people and unnecessary guilt for mum.

So tell me, AIBU??

Hmm. Have the guidelines changed recently? I am now seeing that the recommended maximum is 14 units a week. I'm sure I remember it being 4-6 units a week, which always seemed ridiculously low to me as a student who did binge drink regularly.

well, I can see what benefit a glass of orange juice has on your health, but I fail to see what the benefits of an entire bottle of prosecco are

You lack imagination then. Does wonders for my health.

I love how the thread has now turned against mums who are being careful about their diet whilst breastfeeding

Nice try, but no, it hasn't. Only against the judgy folks who don't understand the science. Be "careful" all you like, but you should try to understand why it is you are doing it.
Your stance is like me judging you for not adequately protecting your children against the dangers of stampeding unicorns. I mean, do you just not care enough?

www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/wine/11344887/Forget-Dry-January-a-glass-of-champagne-is-good-for-you.html

"Fizz fans should be well acquainted with the excellent health manual The Healing Power of Champagne, by Dr F Drouard, which reveals champagne to be a cure for such wide-ranging conditions as low libido, obesity, appetite loss, insomnia and anxiety among many others."

But on that basis, the NHS's advice to "not drink more than 2 units a day" is in line, just less spread out. In fact this advice seems fine to me, though it does seem to quite heavily suggest that you should avoid feeding after drinking, and could be worded more clearly to express that this is an optional/preferential thing and not absolutely necessary.

I'm happy that they have outlined the risks of bedsharing after drinking alcohol and the recommendation to have a sober adult around if you want to drink more than 5 units also makes sense.
www.nhs.uk/Conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/Pages/breastfeeding-alcohol.aspx

Drinkaware.co.uk states to stick to the usual 14 units per week, spread over at least 3 days guideline and recommends timing drinks just after feeding.

Why can't people just enjoy weddings?
Beforehand, during and after the wedding = massive judgefest

No need to time drinks at all though. And definitely no need to "pump and dump "(horrible phrase).

This is absolutely one reason why people stop feeding early in the UK. People saying 'you can have a life without alcohol' and 'I fed for X millions of years with zero alcohol' are just being earnest and deliberately misunderstanding.

And those who don't believe the science cos it doesn't seem right... Oh dear... Maybe you think the world is flat cos you can't see the curve?

We need to open and honest about why people don't breastfeed for long periods.

Yes, I agree there's no need to - but some people prefer to. The NHS article is written in such a way that it does state this is a suggestion rather than a must-do, but it isn't entirely clear that this is the case. I think it should be clearer.

So fruit juice and yoghurt are out, then?

Don' forget lettuce and nutmeg. Lettuce and nutmeg contain poisons. POISONS.

WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN???

Sharknad0, there aren't that many benefits to orange juice (and certainly not for babies) - very sugary. There are very definite benefits to breastmilk (which is what the baby is drinking, not a bottle of prosecco) so if uninformed judgemental third parties lead to a mother being quicker to give up breastfeeding, it is those third parties who are acting in a way detrimental to the baby?

Haven't RTT but the tedium of some answers.....

Anyway YANBU and I completely agree. For breastfeeding to be sustainable long term, it has to fit with a reasonably enjoyable life which for many people includes a bit of alcohol. Gawd - pregnancy is bad enough.

I do extended breastfeeding and I have the odd drink. I don't read the NHS guidelines TBH as the NHS is dinosaur like in its advice or completely extreme.

Penguin
"It's all available online, but I'm not going to research it for you! If you are interested, go look, I don;t have to prove anything on here, I know the science behind my remarks is solid, and if you go looking you'll find the same thing."

I did look before asking if you'd share the evidence you're referring to. I couldn't find any of the following information, hence me asking if you'd mind sharing the information.

"its so well known in the scientific community that its fine that research studies have been approved to test the effects of alcohol in breastmilk in infants, there are not ethical objections because we know its ok."

I did a Google Scholar search and couldn't find any studies that had given infants breastmilk containing alcohol to test the effects on them. I found it surprising that this could be considered an ethical piece of research so I'd be interested in reading about it and finding out the ethical justification for this methodology.

"the toxic parts of alcohol don't enter the breastmilk at all. "

A Google search didn't provide much clarity about what the "toxic parts" of alcohol are, or any studies on their concentration in breastmilk. Again, I'd be interested to read the evidence about this.

"Any experts in this area state that there is no justification to recommend any different restrictions on drinking for breastfeeding women compared to any other women."

As far as I can see, there isn't any commonly agreed 'expert' view on this. Some experts seem to caution against all alcohol use and others suggest occasional alcohol consumption is safe, but I'd like to see the evidence that "any experts" reject the idea that women who are breastfeeding should be more cautious about alcohol consumption than the general population.

Gosh I never had alcohol before 23 and after 25. My life is on hold it seems!

Like I said, the evidence is all there. I've read it all, but its not my job to search for you! I'm feeling generous so I'll give you one meta analysis, but seriously if you are interested, find it for yourself

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bcpt.12149/full

"My husband has said a couple of times to me 'you don't need a drink to enjoy yourself' which is true as I'm still enjoying my pregnancy but on the other hand I don't see him rushing to give up alcohol wink and neither would I expect him to tbh."

I would expect him to, if he felt the need to make comments like that.

Despite what people love to shout about, it IS fairly depressing to abstain completely from alcohol for the duration of a pregnancy and months or years of breastfeeding. Add that to possible periods of low alcohol intake if you are trying to conceive, plus second and third children - that's a pretty big chunk of an adult life. If alcohol was so easily eschewed, it wouldn't be the huge industry it is today.

The OP is not asking you to judge her relationship with alcohol. She is stating two facts, which are: that the NHS recommends near-abstinence whilst breastfeeding; and that breastfeeding rates in this country are too low. The facts are related. That is what she is saying.

It is true that when women feel they are restricted because of BF they are more likely to stop BF. I feel this is a shame. In fact the benefits of BF outweigh the risks of a small amount of alcohol coming through milk. Likewise most everyday medications and even nicotine. (The bigger problem for smoking mothers is passive smoking, which applies equally for FF babies.) For some reason this is often scoffed at as though it couldn't possibly be true or as though the person stating it is making out that breastmilk is a magical wondrous substance, but it isn't. It's just that there are health differences between breastmilk and formula. Unless the breastmilk is riddled with drugs which we know to be dangerous - and there are some - it's still beneficial to the baby over formula.

Here's one study where breastfeeding mothers were given alcohol to see if the babies minded the taste. Passed ethics approval. There are loads of those, I'll let you find the rest.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1886634

deadgood I don't think the tone conveyed properly - he's saying it slightly tongue in cheek as it's something that always gets parroted when people can't drink.

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1471-0528.1974.tb00369.x/abstract

Showing that the toxic aceteldahyde (sp?)doesn't pass into the milk.

I must be in a good mood.

Here is a good article that explains some of the science in a less sciency manner; www.slate.com/articles/double_x/the_kids/2014/12/breast_feeding_and_alcohol_it_s_fine_to_drink_while_nursing.html

"Like I said, the evidence is all there. I've read it all, but its not my job to search for you! I'm feeling generous so I'll give you one meta analysis, but seriously if you are interested, find it for yourself"

Okay, guess we'll have to agree to disagree then as it's not really possible to have an informed conversation without access to the evidence. I did actually come across the article you linked to, but it didn't seem to be the source of three assertions in your earlier post that I had asked about.

Have a good evening. :-) (In case that comes across as sarcastic, I mean it in a genuine way!)

You have access to the sources, you just didn't find them. I have given you a few, but it irritates me when people here expect someone else to find things for them. I'm not writing an essay, I don't need to cite my sources. If you doubt my assertions you are free to research the veracity of them by yourself. Its not my job to do it for you.

53rd, don't forget a small quantity of lettuce to you is loads to the baby! Your salad is the equivalent to a field full of lettuces for your tiny, defenceless baby! You wouldn't put your liquidised lettuce in the baby's bottle would you?"

I find that last sentence - you wouldn't put it in the baby's bottle - when referring to anything eaten or drunk during pregnancy or breastfeeding really helpful in telling me who is a complete idiot and I can stop listening to forevermore.

(Hint - you shouldn't put ANYTHING in a baby's bottle except breastmilk or formula. Unless you are suggesting that pregnant and breastfeeding women live off breastmilk or formula, your argument actually applies to everything in their diet and is a massive heap of shit. I can't believe people are stupid enough to come out with that line, but it pops up in EVERY online debate about diets and/or alcohol consumption in pregnancy or whilst feeding ).

Those studies seem to confirm what I thought and mentioned early in the thread penguin, that alcohol consumption alters the smell / taste of breastmilk and that the baby might drink less milk after the mother has consumed breastmilk. That was my main reasoning behind choosing not to drink until baby started sleeping for six hour stretches when he first goes down at night and even since then I have only had the grand total of 3 glasses of wine spread over several weeks. I don't actually miss alcohol much but I do miss the dairy, bananas and strawberries that I have given up due to baby's allergies. Giving stuff up and feeling slightly deprived isn't going to make me give up breastfeeding though.