To feel totally ignorant about racism

[IcingandSlicing]

In that topic the other day I've learned that I am totally ignorant about racism. I had no idea that comments about hair for example that could be totally not ill meant could strike such a deep chord among other people
Or is it the comment itself or the way it was made - by the tone of voice etc nonverbal information you get from people - that makes it racist?
Or just some comments people make regarding kids like cheeky monkey for epinstance (there are tees with this) could be seen as racist?
I'm at a lost to be honest.
I've probably offended many people without even knowing about it.
I'd assume that in 2016 people would feel equal no matter how they look and not take offense from random comments.
Aibu to think that I'd better keep away from black people in case I'd say something that would offend them? (I mean I can say whatever negative thing I want about blond haired people, red haired people, black haired people, people who colour their hair, people who don't colour their hair, people who have thin hair, people who have thick hair, etc, but I feel like with black people it's likely to strike a deeper chord than ever intended and I am ignorant enough not to understand the history behid that makes it worse.)
And sorry about that I really don't mean to offend. Just to understand.

[YorkieDorkie]

I'm a bit confused at what's so difficult... If you truly believe in equality then just talk to people normally. Are you worried you are a racist? You might not actively be racist but if you find it so hard to talk to people without offending them then I'd worry about what you feel internally. Don't go out of your way to make personal comments. It's not necessary.

[HandWash]

In answer to the OP, yes I think you should do black people a favour and avoid them.

On the hair subject. It's one thing to say someone's hair looks nice etc. But 'Wow, I like your hair!!' As if it's been dyed bright pink, when in fact said person's hair is completely bog standard and typical for a person of that race is grating.

Same as, but where are you really from. I've just fucking told you. Why do I need to provide a complete brake down of my ancestry

Also, just to point out, I wouldn't necessarily think people making these comments were BNP activists. I would however assume them an ignorant, dim person with whom I would have little interest in associating with. I also wouldn't be sending my DC to play at their house.

HTH

[WriteforFun1]

Yorkie, I agree. I am totally ignorant about religion but it doesn't worry me because I never say anything linked to religion.

Also in terms of making personal remarks, I actually just wish people wouldn't make them, but that isn't because of any sensitivity. I just think thing like that belong with close circle people. The thing a pp said about a colleague having people ask to touch her hair - is that other colleagues - I'd be reporting it!

[MizK]

OK...if you do offend somebody then that's usually because you've said something that hurts them or pisses them off. So apologise and learn from it. Not that hard, is it?
I used to call one of my black friends a 'little monkey'. Out of context it sounds like I was being a deliberately racist arsehole. However it was when she would do something cheeky or mischievous and I would also use the word in that way for white friends, or my white children. She explained that she didn't like it and why. No big row, I felt like a dick but she understood the intent was not malicious so set me straight. I'm glad she did.
I hate the way you said you should avoid all black people in case you offend them...as though people are just waiting for an excuse to be offended. Fuck that. just be a decent person and if you do say something that's wrong, correct yourself.

[witsender]

It isn't about treating everyone equally, it is treating everyone with equal respect. And sometimes that might mean treating them slightly differently depending on their circumstances. Someone saying to my one legged mother that she was out and got completely legless the night before would be innappropriate, saying it to me wouldn't be.

It is about being a grown up and judging context. But tbh, you sound quite unpleasant and disingenuously racist so perhaps avoiding most people would be a good idea.

[herecomethepotatoes]

rockacrybaby, WriteforFun1, badDoGood

I've lived and worked all over the world. It's tended to be where white is the minority. Perhaps because of that, I'll ask where people are from and don't expect them to be offended. I'd ask anyone of any colour so yes, I still think that's not a "bloody offensive question". Of course, "yeah, but where are you from originally" is offensive.

I have no idea if BAME (had to google that new term) people are asked where they're from more or less than ummm, non-BAME(?). The thing is, and the point I was trying to make earlier, is I surround myself with normal, non-bigoted people and therefore would never take anything they said to be racist or whatever else. I'd take it to be a genuine question. I can't imagine them ever asking to stroke a stranger's hair. I can imagine them asking someone where they're from within 30 minutes of meeting them.


"I'm speaking with a London accent - stop asking me where I am from."

And what's one of those?

I have an accent that's very English but you'd have no idea where I'm from.

_

tl;dr

Some people look to be offended. Some people are offensive. If you're genuine and treat everyone in the same pleasant way (asking to stroke someone's afro hair is a good example of not doing so) and they still manage to take offence then just forget it.

[WriteforFun1]

herecomes - so if you were in York and you got chatting with a lady in a cafe who had a Yorkshire accent and was of any skin colour, you would ask "where are you from" ?

[herecomethepotatoes]

herecomes - so if you were in York and you got chatting with a lady in a cafe who had a Yorkshire accent and was of any skin colour, you would ask "where are you from" ?

Perhaps. I don't think skin colour would alter my 'line of questioning' (can't think of a better phrase). I'd have the same conversation with an Asian looking person in New York or a Slovac looking one in Italy or a black person in Hong Kong or a white person in London. If it comes up it comes up.

I travel a lot for business and pleasure and meet lots of new people. I love doing so; I'm confident and enjoy making conversation with strangers. "Where are you from" is part of my ready-to-use questions home or abroad.

• Isn't it lovely here etc.
  
• Comment on the weather (I am English, after all).
  
• Ask them where they're from.
  
• Ah, I've never been there but I've heard... / I went there. It's beautiful. / Oh, you're from [here]. Which part?
  

If I've been having a nice conversation with someone of any nationality (and not asked to stroke their hair), then they take offence at my asking where they're from then I'd suggest it's their eagerness to be offended causing it.

Don't think I'm suggesting that the OP didn't say some quite unusual things.

[WriteforFun1]

ah right, so it's part of stock small talk.

it's probably worth taking on board that people who aren't white get a lot of people asking "where are you from" because they expect to hear an answer of a foreign country and that's what I find offensive - the assumption that I cannot be English because I'm not white. More to the point, it's upsetting. Can you see why?

I realise you might ask meaning that I could be "not from whatever coffee shop location is" but the implication to me is usually that they think I'm not English. It's like that thing that happened with immigration officers stopping BAME people at stations etc and asking to see their proof of being allowed to be in the country. It wouldn't happen to a white person.

[WriteforFun1]

here " I'd have the same conversation with an Asian looking person in New York or a Slovac looking one in Italy or a black person in Hong Kong or a white person in London. If it comes up it comes up."

Would you ask the New Yorker where she was from if she just seemed like a typical New Yorker? Because, surely the answer would be New York? Why is the fact that she is Asian looking of any relevance?

[Out2pasture]

I totally understand you OP.
Everyday chatter can and seems to be twisted to suit some peoples negative agenda.
I don't keep many friends who walk around with a chip on their shoulder. Life is too short to walk on egg shells.
I don't go about planning to be insulting, if someone takes a comment that way it's because they have issues.

[Baboooshka]

I'd ask anyone of any colour so yes, I still think that's not a "bloody offensive question". Of course, "yeah, but where are you from originally" is offensive.

Herecomes, but your original question was 'where are you from /and your parents?'. How is asking where someone's parents are from any different than asking 'but where are you from, originally?'

I've also spent much of my adult life overseas, mostly working in international schools where 'where are you from' is asked a thousand times a day without anyone taking offence. It's a fair question, in that context, or in any other context (expat groups, holidays) where you naturally assume the person you're asking isn't from 'here'.

It's entirely different when you're repeatedly asked it in your own home country. At best, it's individually well-meant, but also repetitive and intrusive; at worst, it's used to make some pointed comment I'm asking because clearly you're not from here, you don't get it or racist assumption.

I'm white British and used to have an Anglo surname. In the UK, I got asked questions about my origins perhaps once or twice, probably during Freshers' week at college or when moving into a new house. Now I have a very forrin surname, I get asked about it constantly. It didn't even bother me, at first, but a decade on I'm getting tired of having to either answer personal questions or deflect interest. It's also a bizarre sensation being scrutinised for your ethnicity when you've barely considered it before -- having had the privilege of considering it a non-issue, really, being white in a majority white country. Now some people actually look me up and down, saying stuff like:

• but you don't look [ethnicity]. You look more... [Greek/Irish/any random choice, including, memorably, 'a bit Chinese']
  
• you're from [other country], though?
  
• oh, I see. Born in England? And your parents?
  
• your married name, right. So you met your fellow on holiday, there?
  
• he's from Watford? But where's he from, originally?
  

WHY am I having this conversation? I only wanted to buy a fecking laptop -- why are we now discussing my father-in-law's emigration? This is madness. But if I ignored your questions, I'd seem snotty; if I explained why I can't be bothered answering them again, you'd probably repeat the same BS about some people 'looking' to take offense.

[BertrandRussell]

"I totally understand you OP.
Everyday chatter can and seems to be twisted to suit some peoples negative agenda."

Like what?

[228agreenend]

Also had to look up BAME. You learn something new on Mumsnet everyday!

[mrsmuddlepies]

Most of the red haired /ginger/pale skinned people in the world hailed originally from Scotland/ Ireland. It is sometimes seen as a 'celtic' feature. Yet, I cannot remember the huge number of anti ginger comments I have come across. It is seen far more acceptable than other forms of racism. It shocks me when well educated parents refer to somebody else's child (mine) as 'gingers' with a soft 'g'.
Yet you see ginger prejudice in adverts and right across social media, including Mumsnet.

[MaudGonneMad]

I don't go about planning to be insulting, if someone takes a comment that way it's because they have issues.

Or it's because you have internalised bigoted/prejudiced/racist attitudes. Either or.

[Alisvolatpropiis]

mrs

The anti ginger sentiment, whilst deeply unpleasant, is not racism.

[herecomethepotatoes]

"t's like that thing that happened with immigration officers stopping BAME people at stations etc and asking to see their proof of being allowed to be in the country. It wouldn't happen to a white person."

Racial profiling is different to making small talk and part of that being "where are you from."

Would you ask the New Yorker where she was from if she just seemed like a typical New Yorker? Because, surely the answer would be New York?

What's a typical New Yorker? Talking like Janice from Friends wearing a NY Yankee's shirt and eating a doughnut and a pretzel? Black, white, other? If they felt like they were a typical NY'er then maybe the answer would be Queens or Upper East Side.

Why is the fact that she is Asian looking of any relevance?

The only relevance in my examples was that I'd ask the same questions to anyone. My final example was 'white in London'. Before you jump on that, I'm not saying all Londoners are white. I'm saying I'd ask any skin colour in any country.

the assumption that I cannot be English because I'm not white. More to the point, it's upsetting. Can you see why?

Yes and no. You're making your own assumptions that I don't think you're English and that my question is loaded because of your skin colour.

It comes down to the way a question's asked and by whom and that is my original point. Some people will take offence at an innocuous question or phrase and you can't tiptoe around your whole life being afraid of offending someone. At the same time, some people are idiots and the OP's "Aibu to think that I'd better keep away from black people in case I'd say something that would offend them?" is ridiculous. Someone else said something along the lines of, 'yes you should because you're ignorant; not because they're easily offended' and they were spot on.

[WriteforFun1]

In terms of typical New Yorker - this may be highly tribal but i consider myself a typical Londoner so there is that sense of what combines to make those things.

if you are saying you would literally ask anyone I guess that's one thing, but it seems a weird question full stop.

Also, the fact that people even notice things like Slavic features is something I find surprising. I guess I don't look closely at what people look like and I wish others wouldn't.

In terms of the context in which it's asked, for me it's usually when they hear my name and that feels even more "othering".

"You're making your own assumptions that I don't think you're English and that my question is loaded because of your skin colour. "

Unfortunately that's been my experience, asked because of skin colour, then the answer "london" is followed by "but where are you REALLY from" or "but where are your parents from". If any white people with London accents have been asked this, I will be surprised.

[Out2pasture]

I worked with the public, you would be amazed what some find insulting. Even a comment about a lovely summer day can be seen as insulting.
But isn't the not knowing if something can be misconstrued as racist the point the OP is making?
Take two blue eyed parents, brown eyed offspring, comment on brown eyes.....
If of one heritage it's fine if another it's off limits.

[gingergenie]

poster Alisvo no it's not racist. It's pretty horrible though. Especially when you find out you nearly didn't get a job because of it. Please don't make the mistake of think that mere unpleasantness = acceptable.

[Baboooshka]

Even a comment about a lovely summer day can be seen as insulting.

Yes, I'm sure that happened.

[herecomethepotatoes]

"Also, the fact that people even notice things like Slavic features is something I find surprising. I guess I don't look closely at what people look like and I wish others wouldn't."

Why do you wish people wouldn't notice? Variety's the spice of life. I'm surprised you think "where are you from?" is a weird question. Perhaps it's because I meet more people who are from other places that makes it less so for me.

I grew up in the middle of Dartmoor. People asked you where you're from. Then they ask you where your parents are from. They kept going until you didn't know anymore. It's the norm. I went to a posh school and have an accent that doesn't show where I'm from. People (from back home) have asked where I'm really from as I don't sound like a farmer.

[Alisvolatpropiis]

ginger - I didn't say it was "merely" unpleasant. I said it was deeply unpleasant. Don't think I said it was a okay either.

Lots of red heads in my family, though I am not one myself.