Is Beyonce lemonade the most powerful black feminist piece of work?

[GetInFormationLadies]

I'm barely over the death of prince but this album as made me shed a lake ful of tears in the last day.

It's such a powerful, strong love filled album that will help all black women get through even their darkest days.

She has left behind her sugar pop to try something very risky but to follow her heart.

I can not recommend it enough.

And in regards to the black references, how many people bullied her little girl and insulted her hair because beyonce left it in an afro and her nose/lips.
Maybe shes trying to change how the people see black hair and i know you will say she wears weave but now wearing weave is the 'right' hair to wear for black women, she obviously isnt ready to not wear considering the times we are in but the time her daughter is a teen hopefully things will change and she will be apart of it.

Well i feel that is what she is trying to do anyway.

I must have been really naive till now. As someone who considers myself a feminist, till now I always thought we are in this together. When I see a woman, I don't care about her skin colour or origin. To me, we are in the same crap when it comes to equal rights. Only now I've realized that I got it wrong. A black feminist will never speak for me because I am white and as such not equal in my status and rights. It's not us. It's THEM and us US and we will apparently never see eye to eye. So thank you for the lesson.

PrimalLass I'm sorry but I have to call B.S on this....
It just doesn't seem 'real' to You...? Ergo it isn't 'real'..?
Huh..?

I am allowed to have an opinion, and couldn't give a shit what you 'call BS' on. I didn't realise this thread was only for people who all agree.

I can't really be bothered reading this any more.

Ok, I will say that only releasing it on Tidal is the thing that was the most odd in light of the content. Change 'not real' to 'calculated to make lots of money because of the hype'.

A big feminist icon who then brings in a ton of cash for the man who has wronged her? That's what doesn't sit right.

I heard one of the songs yesterday. It was truly awful and to this day I can't understand Beyonce's success as she can't hold a tune. As for being a black feminist - it just bores me, as everything about Beyoncé bores me.

I must have been really naive till now. As someone who considers myself a feminist, till now I always thought we are in this together. When I see a woman, I don't care about her skin colour or origin. To me, we are in the same crap when it comes to equal rights.

Naive and self-absorbed, if not self-important. You can 'see' other people however you like. You don't have to care about their skin colour or origin. But the world doesn't exist through your eyes alone, so it doesn't mean those factors stop influencing other people's upbringing, mindset, aspirations and difficulties, often in ways you don't even begin (and are apparently not interesting in trying) to understand.

Why does it have to be 'them and us' when someone wants to talk about black feminism? Why can't you listen, instead of immediately feeling insulted that you've been excluded? We're not actually 'in the same crap when it comes to equal rights' -- fundamentally, yes, we're all working against one huge form of discrimination, but you can't just ignore all the other aspects in play, including race, and get pissy or petulant when anyone tries to raise this in discussion.

Baboooshka don't waste your time.

Why does it have to be 'them and us' when someone wants to talk about black feminism? Why can't you listen, instead of immediately feeling insulted that you've been excluded? We're not actually 'in the same crap when it comes to equal rights' -- fundamentally, yes, we're all working against one huge form of discrimination, but you can't just ignore all the other aspects in play, including race, and get pissy or petulant when anyone tries to raise this in discussion.

Who is self absorbed? Those where talking about "white privilege" here or those who say that instead of segregating ourselves we should find a common ground?
There's no bloody white feminism. There are feminists all over the world who may have a completely different range of struggles and issues which they are looking at. Compare women in Russia and let's say Netherlands. Their position in a society is vastly different, with Russia still living the old patriarchal style where a woman was handed over from her father to her husband with a whip to use when she stepped out of the line. Or take Poland with their religious race back to the Middle Ages. Saudi Arabia. Women from the ex-Eastern Block who for a long time were all considered potential prostitutes or mail-order brides ready to sell their bodies for a Western lifestyle. And your white skin didn't save you, all you had to say was where you come from to be considered second class.
I'm not blind to the issue of the race. Of course, it comes into the equation, for all races.
But too me, feminism is about all aspects of equal rights issues, with different shades of added bias, be it race, origin or outdated religious and cultural beliefs in a certain culture. As women we should stand together and be aware and respectful of our common issues and of our differences too and find a common ground. I also believe that a woman can be a feminist and a racist at the same time. But that doesn't mean that there is "white feminism", it's a person having some really idiotic opinions. I would like to believe that categories such as "white feminism", "black feminism", "Asian feminism", "First Nations feminism" shouldn't really exist - that means segregation and in-fighting. We should all be fighting patriarchal society and all aspects of life that still make us secondary citizens.
My mantra is that there's no worse enemy of a woman than yet another woman. Instead of sticking together, the ugly hydra of bitchiness will always raise its hideous head.

Blimey
Women are the enemy because they will never cease being bitches?

An I being too simplistic here. If a black woman wants to articulate the ways in which her life is affected by both being black and being a woman, my way of standing up for all women, is to listen.

^^yes pagwatch!

Half way through a big post but cant be arsed. Its depressing.

Okay I might be missing the point, and I know it's a cardinal sin nowadays to not worship at the feet of Queen Beyoncé, but nobody credits an actor with changing the world when they play a role, because they are speaking words written for them by other people.
Beyoncé doesn't write her own material. So essentially, are we not just praising her singing abilities, while people in the background write the hot topics for her to publicise?

I know it's a cardinal sin nowadays to not worship at the feet of Queen Beyoncé

Its really not. I'm not and never have been a fan. But i do like what i have heard of this new album.

The whole reason why people argue that white feminism exists is because it ignored the injustices of being from a minority AND female. Women of colour involved in the movement were not given platforms to speak up about the issues they faced in their lives, so there was a need to branch off. We all know Lena Dunham (spelling??) is a feminist, but in her TV show that explored the daily trials and complexities of being a young woman, all the girls were white. To shoo the notion that black feminism is unnecessary because 'feminism' has it covered is exactly what people mean when they talk of 'white privilege'.

Perhaps this is improving, I don't particularly follow it all.

Does anyone actually believe Beyoncé wrote any of this material?

She's as manufactured as a Barbie doll.

I do like her, but bollocks to her going down in history as a great feminist.

i thought it was interesting the earlier poster who mentioned beyonce's daughter blue and her afro hair that beyonce refused to plait the first three years of her life! it was so interesting coming from someone whop had whitewashed herself her whole career upto that point to then have a little girl and see the way she dealt with her racial aspects.

i feel quite a common chime with this as until i had my daughter i never really claimed my black identity. i benefitted from being ethnically ambiguous - not white but my features often have me mistaken for arab or asian (my mothers people come from the horn of africa by the red sea). which meant alot in the muslim community i come from. it benefitted me in many ways to be light skinned and ethnically ambiguous, even into the kinds of men interested in marrying me. men who normally wouldnt consider a black muslim sister but because i could 'pass' they would propose to my parents for me. knowing the politics of muslim marriages i preferred to be a 'trophy' wife for a man of my own race rather than to be considered marrying 'up' by marrying a man of a different race. but once i had my daughter, saw her beautiful dark skin, wide african nose, i realised that i needed to be her biggest supporter and fan. my mother used to try to press and squeeze her nose when she was a baby, compulsively she couldnt help herself, and we had arguments which she couldnt understand because her own mother used to do that for any of my cousins that showed that wide bellpepper nose. my mother told me this was for my daughters work and marriage prospects in the future, i couldnt believe a religious woman like my mother had internalised such racism to see her baby granddaughter and already fret about who would consider to marry her when she was older because she looked too 'black'.

i stopped relaxing my hair - the only tell that i was black - when she was born so that i could tell her a truth that she had good hair and not seem a hypocrit. having to raise a confident little black girl made me deal with my own hair problems, begin to really embrace my african identity, cornrow and plait her hair into intricate styles with bobbles and beads so that she feels good about her thick afro. though i wear a muslim headscarf my daughters hair is my pride and joy and i labour over it literally to make it beautiful. she wouldnt have it any less anyway!

so i can understand how being a mother has made beyonce turn to her roots when she hadnt considered it as much before.

It's unfair to say that she doesn't write her own material and therefore she has nothing to do with the message - she is credited on every single song and she has creative control since breaking away from her father. She knows what she wants to say and that decision is hers, but as her talent is primarily performing - she obviously needs help from those who are primarily talented writers. It's a particular skill, and maybe when it comes to the physical writing of the song she needs help with that. It's not a case of Beyonce sat on a yacht waiting for her songs to arrive, with absolutely no input from her.

There are some posters on here who seem to think that they have the authority on what feminism is or should be to each woman. It's not so simple, and it's perhaps a personal thing to many. I don't identify with the kind of feminism which says 'if you forgive your husband for an affair, you're off the team' and I don't identify with the kind of feminism that ignores the specific struggles of certain women in society i.e. black women.

As much as some of you will say 'Beyonce is not empowering, she is not a feminist' - that is simply NOT up to you to decide. To me, she is hugely empowering and she is the version of feminism that I do identify with. That is my experience as a woman, and nobody can say that it's wrong. Her music has influenced me and pushed me and improved me.

Clandestina, your post is such a garbled mess of contradictory statements it's almost impossible to answer. Women should stick together, because our biggest enemy is other women? We should respect others' experiences, but a black woman describing how racism and sexism have affected her life is 'segregating' herself?

How the hell are we supposed to 'stand together' when we don't even understand or listen to each other's specific issues? It's just meaningless sentiment: nothing practical will change.

The weirdest thing is that you seem to assume that someone defining themselves as 'black/feminist' is automatically relegating every white woman of every country into one opposing team. Again: you're making it about you.

And this is just bizarre:

I also believe that a woman can be a feminist and a racist at the same time. But that doesn't mean that there is "white feminism", it's a person having some really idiotic opinions.

It kind of sounds like you think that, on top of 'black feminism' annexing all white women into one ginormous opposing faction, this imaginary 'white feminism' is understood to mean 'white supremacist feminism'.

Anyway, the whole thing pretty much jumped the shark with the 'ugly hydra of bitchiness', so -- what Pagwatch said. ^^

Moonstruck that's a beautifully honest post. It's the same thing with me. I am black, but I'm also mistaken as south Asian. I've married a black man and when pregnant, the comments started 'hopefully the baby will have your nose/hair/complexion. This came from both our families. He was born looking like my twin, except his nose, which I am very proud of! We have to lift our babies up above all the hate that comes from within our own culture as well as from outside of it.

I haven't read the whole thread, but watched the film last night. I cried, I laughed, I rejoiced and was in awe of her willingness to use herself for her art.

I'm a woman, I'm a feminist and I'm white. She moved me through her expression of her personal story, her pain and her journey through it. She moved me through her telling of her story as an African American woman, she gave me an idea of what that means, she lets me see into that reality. I am in awe of this piece of work. It's a collaborative work, but she is the central guiding force. Just as Ai Wei Wei and Marina Abramovic can't create their works without a team, nor can she. Art comes in many forms.

It's unfair to say that she doesn't write her own material and therefore she has nothing to do with the message - she is credited on every single song and she has creative control since breaking away from her father.

An artist like Beyoncé only has to write a line in a song, nay, a word and she is given song writing credits. Shit for the talented song writer, great for the singer.

She won't have written more than 10% of the songs that are credited to her, if that.

Great discussion, thanks. Let's always keep this a safe place to have it.

Beyoncé is a lot of things but I'm really struggling to see her as a feminist icon.

Moonstruck what a moving post.
Loving some of the contributions on this thread.

I just want to say something to the white women, some of whom are posting some bullshit, and those lurking and potentially agreeing with that bullshit. I am a white woman. I have watched and listened to Lemonade over and over since Sunday, and I really, really love it. Give it a watch if you haven't already.

This album isn't 'for us' (white women), in the sense that it doesn't directly speak to us and about our experience (like a lot of 'feminist' popular culture might do).

However, it is 'for us' in the sense that we can listen, we can learn, we can read about and work to educate ourselves on what we might not understand, and we can become better feminists/women/people in the process. This isn't the only text that can provide this function, but it is an accessible, mainstream, and contemporary one.

Yes, we are all oppressed as women. But black women have specific experiences that come from their racial oppression (and those experiences are not monolithic by any means). Learning about those experiences, through listening, without judgement, without getting defensive, without getting offended that it's not all about you for once - that can make you more aware of your white privilege, a better ally, more inclusive in your feminism and your life. It's not black women's responsibility to teach us these lessons, but when an artist like Beyoncé creates something like Lemonade, you can, and should, take that opportunity to learn.

Clandestino yes we are in this together fighting for all different kinds of patriarchy in our society through feminism.
Now this is where am going to make it clear that you are a it naive when it comes to white feminist privileges. Or the ones that gets my goat is the non supportive feminist group that ignore black women. With this am talking about European and American feminist.
Examples below.
Firstly, why would a female magazine call Rihanna the ultimate N- word bitch?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/20/rihanna-called-n-word-in-nn_1160181.html
The problem with this was that people didn't take to be a sexism issue, rather, referred to it as racism. Did white feminist get involved? I don't think so.
Just imagine if ok magazine referred to Cheryl's Cole in that way. And instead of the N word, they just used man.

The other one is the incident that happened between Rutgers black women's basketball team with don imus in 2007. You would have thought that all feminist would join in on the out cry against this racist, sexist pig. And guess what, someone like Rosie o'donnell actually supported him.
What don said then was on air. "Nappy headed hos " all feminist should have stood up against him and not supported free speech. Believe me there was more to that conversation. Which were all sexist and if you add history to it makes it unbelievable.

while you think that other people that don't think like you are being bitchy, trying finding out why the hashtag #solidarityisforwhitewomen begun.

By the way while you are at. Ask yourself why black feminism are taught as sub- genre to the main feminism? It's never as part of feminism as a whole in America and uk.

Believe me there are lots of examples.