Is Beyonce lemonade the most powerful black feminist piece of work?

[GetInFormationLadies]

I'm barely over the death of prince but this album as made me shed a lake ful of tears in the last day.

It's such a powerful, strong love filled album that will help all black women get through even their darkest days.

She has left behind her sugar pop to try something very risky but to follow her heart.

I can not recommend it enough.

Wow – a lot of deep opinions and assumptions here.

She may well be singing and dancing about the struggles of black women, but remember she is a privileged and wealthy celebrity with European features (blonde straight hair, lighter skin colour, thinner nose and lips) who lives in the richest, most powerful country in the world. I’m dubious she has really experienced the struggles of the average black woman.

Sadly, I think it’s a huge publicity stunt by both her and JayZ. Sure there is a message in there but she’ll be forgotten about within the next few months which is a great shame really.

With her position and influence she could support the cause in many other ways too. Is she donating the proceeds to black female causes, attending rallies, petitioning government?

Totally agree touche

Touché there is more than one way to change the world - she is an artist. Art makes people think and question things, it has a long history of being part of political struggles. Art speaks to people. Just read one of the pieces written by black women this week, or some of the comments on this thread, to see the difference it has made to have a popular album made for/about that struggle. Her fame and fortune makes that message mainstream and accessible.

And so what if it's a publicity stunt? What exactly is wrong with that? Using your celebrity and playing with your public relationship persona seems like a clever way to make sure everyone listens to/watches your album.

And fwiw she and jayz have donated lots to black lives matter and related causes.

Touche... she looks the way she does, but she is still black. She using her position to give a little stage to the issues important to black women. That's commendable enough.

Let me drive a little off road here. There was a study done in the US where a particular health outcome (I forget) was measured for women of different ethnicities and socioeconomic status. Black women were the only women who had the same outcome regardless of socioeconomic status. They adjusted the results and concluded that 'racism' was the reason that even the wealthiest black women had health outcomes no different to the poorest black women (something not observed with other races). I went to a top public health university, we spent an entire lecture discussing this. Some people argued that there MUST have been another reason. But my professor, a white female, talked us through the study so we understood why their conclusion was fair. There was even a video made to present the results, I wonder if it's on YouTube. There were interviews from wealthy and poor black women to add meat to the results.

Interesting, no?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448603/

This is not the study I alluded to, it seems to be a subsequent study that focuses only on AA women and racial discrimination and how it affects infant birthweight.

Both Beyoncé and rosa parks had to be palatable to the White audience for their message to be accepted.

rosa parks was purposely chosen for the bus incident to make a statement. Before her, claudette who is considered by many as the first rosa parks did it. She was sixteen year old unmarried woman with a child. Matin Luther King and his team who paid for her legal court case and bail thought it would be a bad idea to take her case to the Supreme Court. In short. What happened is a middle class married black woman rosa parks did the same thing. They used this to prove a point which is now history. They thought it was easier to sell her story to the public or media and it worked.

No, no, no, no, no.

Firstly, please show where Rosa Parks said that because I've never seen that she did.

Secondly, Rosa Parks was not CHOSEN to make a STATEMENT. That's ridiculous. She wasn't CHOSEN for a start. She worked for the NAACP. She was an activist. She was arrested as a part of a strategy to generate a case in order to go to court. And it wasn't a STATEMENT. They were doing THE OPPOSITE OF MAKING A STATEMENT. They were engaging in STRATEGIC ACTION TO ACHIEVE A LEGAL END.

The civil rights movement funded hundreds of test cases over almost 15 years in order to get racial desegregation. There were many Rosa Parks out there.

In fact, the NAACP DID take Claudette Colvin's case because that was the case that led to the desegregation of the Montgomery Bus system. Browder v. Gayle i.e. Claudette Colvin's case worked through the state system whilst Rosa Park's case worked through the federal system.

And yes, Claudette Colvin was not considered the ideal test case. So what? They had a 15 year strategy and they couldn't risk it. The entire black community needed them to succeed and they needed to strategically maximize their chances. They won that case and many others and that's why if you are in America and you are black, you are able to sit on the internet talking about Beyonce.

You just don't get it AT ALL.

The legal ends they achieved were STICKY. In other words, they have ENDURED OVER TIME, even against drastic shifts in public opinion. The Warren Court (that is the liberal 1950s supreme court that presided over landmark civil rights cases in America) constitutionalized certain policies that still are in place today, including affirmative action, voting rights and desegregation.

There has been HUGE BACKLASH in America against these civil rights policies. But it has taken almost 50 years of sustained legal and legislative presume and they STILL HAVE NOT managed to dismantle them (even under very right wing republican leaders). Why? BECAUSE THEY ARE STICKY. IT'S REALLY HARD TO CHANGE CONSTITUTIONAL LAW AND PRECEDENT. SO ONCE SOMETHING IS IN, IT'S IN FOR A LONG DAMN TIME.

The civil rights leaders knew that which is why they targeted these institutions. EVERY SINGLE ATTEMPT TO CHANGE PUBLIC OPINION WAS PART OF A STRATEGY TO CHANGE LAWS and RULES.

What Beyonce is doing is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE. She is JUST MAKING A STATEMENT. At best, she MIGHT change public opinion. There is nothing wrong with that but it's not very effective Why not? Because public opinion is NOT STICKY AT ALL. It's not worth much. People change their minds over and over and over. They believe one thing when the economy is good or crime is down but change their mind when it's bad. They get defensive and vote against their own interests. Why are people so worried about the EU referendum? Because they know that if our place in Europe depends on weekly shifts in public opinion instead of decisions made by our leaders and our institutions, we'll be fucked!

Every time a police officer shoots a black person unprovoked in cold blood, they are making a decision that black lives don't matter. It's been made clear that shifts in public opinion will NOT deter them. The only way to make them accountable is through institutional reform. Institutional reform has to be achieved STRATEGICALLY within STICKY INSTITUTIONS. Shifts in public opinion can be PART of that, but only a PART.

That's why what Beyonce is doing is art, it's a feminist statement and it's a black feminist statement. Awesome! But it's not in the same universe as Rosa Parks. It's not in the same universe as MLK Jr and it's really really REALLY embarrassing that other black people don't understand this.

I am black and a lawyer (if you can't tell) and my feelings about this album have gone from joy to bemusement to disappointment because of how ridiculously OTT other black people are being about it. People need to get a grip, seriously.

Monstrook
As a black professional woman with very African hair and worn in dread locks, I reject the idea that black women cannot wear their hair natural in a professional environment and succeed. For the past decade I have worn my hair natural in the UK from interviews onwards. It is time to emancipate ourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds according to Bob Marley. How have Baroness Amos and Baroness Benjamin managed with natural hair? I ask you to help your friend think through this. It might be a new awakening for her.

Moonstrook I see you have withdrawn your post but my message still stands to all those who are struggling to wear their hair natural because they are worried about the reception from corporate UK. Those who are feeling shy, please feel free to PM me.

Happily we, the public, aren't married to Jay z, so it's her headache people are taking panadol for.

I love this! The popularity of Camel remains a mystery to me.

As for the suggestion that black women can't succeed in a professional environment with natural hair, I'm 25 years in and very glad I had no idea about this. Not one white person has ever been disparaging about my hair. Interested, curious (occasionally annoyingly so), complimentary, yes. Nor has any person of any race ever assumed they had the right to tell me or any other woman what to do with our hair, and I have worked for some very traditional, conservative Bufton Tuftons in my time. The UK is very different from the US in this respect, it appears.

A11 I love your post, I really do.

Clandestino, please read Pagwatch's post over and over again in the hope that its meaning will sink in. How can you claim to be in it for all women if you won't even read a few internet posts from black women telling how it is for them without pulling a strop?

Thinking that natural hair and corporate don't match is very outdated- my Mum as a young woman in financial services in the UK did not have natural hair and I think she wouldn't have 'dared'. Now she has natural hair in a more senior role and encourages her daughters to have natural hair.

clandestino I do see where you're coming from and I see that it might have come as a shock to you and in fairness it can at first glance seem contradictary to say 'in it together' then separate into 'black feminism'. But, it's not that it's separate as such, it's that sometimes the needs are different. We are in it together for the bigger picture but black women face some struggles that white women don't necessarily.

I think it's definitely different in the US to the UK. My cousin worked as a nurse in the US for a while and said racism is very different there to where she lives in Leeds.

Moon what you said resonated a lot with me and I u sees tans where your coming from.

An artist like Beyoncé only has to write a line in a song, nay, a word and she is given song writing credits. Shit for the talented song writer, great for the singer.
From my understanding of song writing for people like Beyoncé. Everyone, present who make a contribution and is added to the song has to be credited. People like Simon cowel have been credited on songs before. Some of Simon's ones are because he made suggestions not, not even contribute words.

Singers, musicians and song writers these days get better credits compared to what used to happen.
A singer adding their name guarantees they get paid, instead of just the song writer and producer. A lot of old singers missed out on these opportunities.

She may well be singing and dancing about the struggles of black women, but remember she is a privileged and wealthy celebrity with European features (blonde straight hair, lighter skin colour, thinner nose and lips) who lives in the richest, most powerful country in the world. I’m dubious she has really experienced the struggles of the average black woman.
You are forgetting she grew up in Texas. A black person having European features is great for interaction in the dominant world but not in the black community. I remember years ago Beyoncé saying her hair was always being pulled by bullies at school.
Racism does not chose age either. People can be racist against young children all the time. It's nothing new. The amount of talent shows she was in I can't imagine her going through that without any hiccups, can you ?

How about the racism his father who is from Alabama would have gone through. Are you telling me they don't talk about things like that?

With her position and influence she could support the cause in many other ways too. Is she donating the proceeds to black female causes, attending rallies, petitioning government?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/09/beyonce-hometown-houstonnn_5570609.html

Also jay z mum runs the shawn Carter scholarship foundation. I think it's to help this who want to get back into education. I also don't know if it still exist.

Look at the list of charities Beyoncé is working with for her 'formation tour'.
Which includes chime for change. She has been supporting this for the last three year or so.

A11
This might be an interesting link for the rosa parks.

www.biography.com/news/black-history-unsung-heroes-claudette-colvin

a11 I didn't say that Beyoncé was going to change legislation because of her songs. What I was talking about was the strategy used on who can be listen to, or who can cross the barriers past the black community. That is the connection I made between Beyoncé and rosa park. If something like that didn't matter, claudette would have been a candidate. Why didn't you think she wasn't? Or why isn't Ledisi the singer couldn't if she was to do the similar thing?

The link I should you above includes an interview with claudette where she states that she understands why things turned out that way. Why they chose rosa parks over her.

That is the comparison am making.

Moon I was meant to say, i understand where your coming from.

With the hair debate, I sometimes think that it's been ingrained in black women's nature that it's becomes a natural habit to hate it. I don't think this applies to black women in Africa.

a11 I didn't say that Beyoncé was going to change legislation because of her songs. What I was talking about was the strategy used on who can be listen to, or who can cross the barriers past the black community. That is the connection I made between Beyoncé and rosa park. If something like that didn't matter, claudette would have been a candidate. Why didn't you think she wasn't? Or why isn't Ledisi the singer couldn't if she was to do the similar thing?
Correction on the grammar.
What i was trying to say is that Beyoncé's songs or album is not aimed at changing any form of legislation. My comment was about the strategy used to get the message across without being threatening to the white audience In order to be taken seriously.
What I asked was that if their image didn't matter, claudette would have been a good candidate. However, they took personal image and background into consideration.

Who knows, probably by next week the album will be long gone and forgotten, we move on to the next exiting thing.

When Ledisi got snubbed for the Grammys, Beyoncé was invited to perform precious Lord from the movie Selma. When asked about it, Ledisi said she didn't mind. I can only assume that it would hurt knowing that you were not considered worthy of a Grammy performance even though your fellow male cast mates were invited to perform.

quencher

I know the full history of Claudette Colvin. You quoted Rosa Parks - can you provide a source for it?

What I was talking about was the strategy used on who can be listen to, or who can cross the barriers past the black community.

I honestly don't know what this means!!! As I stated before (in some length!), Rosa Parks wasn't being "listened to", she was a willing foot soldier in a legal battle that had tangible impacts.

Black women have had a powerful on art and culture throughout American history. They have been hypervisible in fact. Nina fucking Simone, Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou, Josephine Baker. These women were hugely successful, amongst whites and blacks, and they also made powerful statements about what it means to live as a black woman.

Their influence is unquestioned and frankly, more people have read and will read "I know why the caged bird sings" than will listen to Lemonade. More people have read Beloved than will listen to Lemonade. More people will listen to and have listened to Mississippi Goddamn than will listen to Lemonade.

I am not attacking Beyonce. She is a great talent. And she has done something amazing here. I am challenging the crazy stans who will not stop spouting nonsense, mostly at the expense of the black women who came before Beyonce.

My comment was about the strategy used to get the message across without being threatening to the white audience In order to be taken seriously.

Lol. and you think I'm naive. You think that being non-threatening enough will get white audiences to "listen"? How cute! Tamir Rice was 12 years old. Dajerria Becton was a 14 year old girl in a bikini. So threatening!

None of this matters. The only thing that will get real results is institutional reform. Not people yelling "yess queen" on instagram.

not seen vid or heard it. but if its anything like many female artists out there writihing around half naked gyrating, dancing around a pole like they are reinacting a sexual act,satanic symbolism, no thanks it doesnt scream powerful or feminist to me, degrading comes to mind and thats being mild. nothing but soft porn overdone easy money, sex sells.

i dont like that sort of music and beyonce isnt the only one who produces such garbage to be fair.

" not seen vid or heard it. but if its anything like many female artists out there writihing around half naked gyrating, dancing around a pole like they are reinacting a sexual act,satanic symbolism, no thanks it doesnt scream powerful or feminist to me, degrading comes to mind and thats being mild. nothing but soft porn overdone easy money, sex sells."

Might be an idea to watch it before deciding it is all of the above.

Moonstruck - your post is thought provoking. Thank you.

Katz I agree, though sounds like she may have covered up more for this one.

Op I really hope this thread gets moved to feminism as AIBU is too fast paced and the contributions here need lots of comment on!

toy, quencher, howrude thank you for your supportive comments. I found the thread very thought provoking and so wanted to talk candidly here about how this subject touches me.

jay I totally got what you said about people saying they wished your baby would take your features/complexion etc, I was always able to crossover and enjoyed that with my features I could do so. but then I had a girl child and because I knew what type of crap she would have to deal with in the future as a dark skinned black girl I became a different person. I think that's when we started seeing beyonce identifying more with her black roots. To me it began when we saw her get criticised left/right/centre on social media for leaving her daughter Blue ivy's hair in its full afro glory. Maybe it dawned on her that whilst she had been able to use her ethnic ambiguity for her own advantage in celebrity and in dating her own daughter - the face off of jay z- was squarely black. So as well as raising her daughter to be unashamedly black - cue the open afro hair - beyonce figured the society her daughter was growing up in needs to change also. That The ideas about black women being hypersexual, least marriageable, difficult to handle (Warsaw shire's poem 'women who are difficult to love' features on the album) have to be challenged.

Having a child and specifically a girl child made me start to think deeply on racism and specifically our own racism in our own communities that we commit against ourselves. To my mother that constant pressing and squeezing of her baby granddaughter's nose was out of love-being a newborn it was most pliable to being narrowed so that she could fit in more with the prevailing beauty ideal or even, so that she would be less black. To me it's the message that the african female's physicality has to be suppressed is so sad, breast ironing or fgm being the most extreme. Those women who do that to their daughters thinking they're doing their duty to help their daughters as pressing and squeezing my little girls nose was my mums expression of love. Though all so wrong and abusive. Instead I set about trying to counteract the negativity my daughter may pick up on bring black by Buying umpteen black dolls, baby girl ones when she was little and then barbie style ones when she got older. I Took out a 2 year subscription to essence magazine so my daughter could see beautiful dark skinned black women in glossy magazines. I was ecstatic when Disney came out with their first black Disney princess - tiana, then little doc mcstuffins on Disney junior, took my daughter to watch the new Annie with quvenzhané wallis at the cinemas, then gratuity 'tip' tucci in 'home'.

As for the corporate hair issue I know that for my friend it was bone deep for her this feeling that her natural hair was far too political for work. Did someone earlier say it's more an American concern than british? I initially brought it up as an example of how middle and upper class black women in media and finance face issues of natural hair versus relaxed/weave but now I wonder if it's actually seen as a way of improving ones socioeconomic profile.

I remember Beyoncé's last album as being mostly about how loved up and desirous of each other her husband and her were. All that near naked writhing around and going on about their fabulous sex life. Then all the stuff came out about her husband's cheating so this album is like the opposite of that last album.

no martha its a publicity campaign thats what they want me todo tune in, so i'll pass. im sure ill be forced to hear more about it when i pop on radio 5 or bbc world service in the morning for serious headlines, because the world needs to know about "lemonade". Ive sort of got sick of mainstream music too much of it sounds similar uninspiring .

Getinformation I think YABU for even suggesting Beyoncé is comparable to notable black feminists because let's be honest, she is manufactured pop selling a brand, pure and simple! BUT I admire Beyoncé for sticking her head above the parapet.

I don't care about her motives and hope a positive is taken from the film - Awareness, understanding and acceptance.

Perhaps Beyoncé can be considered our modern day advocate of black women, but I would find that disappointing when there are others doing, in my opinion selfless work that is unfortunately not recognised! I know why, so if Beyoncé helps break down those barriers I'm fully behind her.

I've always been more of a Jill Scott, Erykah Badu, Angie Stone fan and it's always bothered me that they aren't more mainstream. - I can't remember who posted this but those women's art resonate with me. Such a shame they don't get the recognition they deserve.

Overall good for Beyoncé, a step forward. I have learnt to avoid posting on threads that involve race as they blow up, people misunderstand that some can't articulate as well as others etc. but felt compelled to post.

Moon your post touched me also. Stay proud

My husband is white and compliments our little girls hair more when it's out and in its natural state with curls everywhere, rather than braided. My hair is in dreads (21 years) and I've never experienced any prejudice in the work place. Maybe I have and I just don't realise as I wear rose tinted glasses on. I let things roll over me.

slugseatlettuce I'm not sure why anyone would think complimenting someone hair is racist? What was the context?

I've been asked how I wash my hair I state the obvious and say 'water and soap, just like you!'

I just think they're ignorant, not racist.