Is Beyonce lemonade the most powerful black feminist piece of work?

[GetInFormationLadies]

I'm barely over the death of prince but this album as made me shed a lake ful of tears in the last day.

It's such a powerful, strong love filled album that will help all black women get through even their darkest days.

She has left behind her sugar pop to try something very risky but to follow her heart.

I can not recommend it enough.

no martha its a publicity campaign thats what they want me todo tune in, so i'll pass.

Then dont go declaring it everything you did if you arent going to even check that you are right. just an idea.

A11 I think you are missing the point. My use of the word listen was meant for getting the message across with their Campaign.
Why they used rosa pack as an example rather than claudette for the supreme court case. What I said was they chose rosa parks because of her life and according to claudette, she said the colour of their skin played a part on who got chosen. I have included the examples why below which you probably already know and includes quotes on who said what.

The connection I was making was regarding Pearce Morgan's wording. He said she has become threatening and not the same person he had tea and scorns with in Harrods. She has turned black. What this would have meant is that she was culturally ambiguous. She didn't ruffle any feathers prior to this. They all thought she was the girl next door or not different to Britney Spears. His statement would chime with what black people have been telling Beyoncé for years she succeeded while over looking her talent. Her colour has always played a part. Or people claiming her bleaching to fit into a society that is not very welcoming to black women of a darker pigment.

So when I said they both used the same strategy. It's how they played the system they are up against. Beyoncé played the system by being neutral to get to where she is now.
While people at the civil rights movement choose someone they thought would translate better to the White audience who will be watching the news.
You cannot tell me that is not strategic and playing to what white america deemed acceptable in order to have an outcome.

E. D. Nixon, an influential black leader heavily involved with the case, said, ‘I had to be sure that I had somebody I could win with’.

Potential reasons
1- Some in Montgomery, particularly in King Hill, think the decision was informed by snobbery. “It was partly because of her colour and because she was from the working poor,” says Gwen Patton, who has been involved in civil rights work in Montgomery since the early 60s. “She lived in a little shack. It was a case of ‘bourgey’ blacks looking down on the working-class blacks.”

2- Some felt she was too young to be the trigger that precipitated the movement,’ wrote Jo Anne Robinson, a professor at Alabama State College.

3- In his Pulitzer prize-winning account of the civil rights years, Parting The Waters, Taylor Branch wrote: “Even if Montgomery Negroes were willing to rally behind an unwed, pregnant teenager – which they were not – her circumstances would make her an extremely vulnerable standard bearer.”

And from claudette herself on why she want chosen.
4-Even if I was not pregnant … The only difference between me and Rosa was that she was an adult and a lighter tone. Black people, at that particular time, liked the lighter feature of women … and men. [Because of television] Rosa would make a good representative for both the poor and the middle class people.

I'd almost forgot that Beyonce was actually black.

quencher

Based on what you just wrote, I think (!) you are suggesting that Beyonce is like Rosa Parks because she "acted white" and "fit in with what white people wanted" to get famous and is now promoting her "black self" now she is famous.

That makes no sense:

1. Rosa Parks was completely consistent in her beliefs and outward presentation throughout her life. She never changed how she appeared or behaved in order to placate the white majority. By your own account, that is the exact opposite of Beyonce.
2. You might as well say that Ben Carson or Justice Clarence Thomas are like Rosa Parks because they "fit in with what white people want". People don't admire Rosa Parks because she fit in with white people but because she stood up to injustice.
3. Strategy requires an endpoint. Rosa Parks had a endpoint. Beyonce does not. A singer releasing an album is not a "campaign", it's a promotional release.

I think I have to give up because it's really clear to me that we are talking at cross purposes. I really just encourage you to dig a bit below twitter declarations. History and knowledge are powerful. Education is powerful. Read a book on the history of the civil rights movement. Once you truly understand, it will put this whole thing into some much needed context.

slugseatlettuce racism has such a complex definition and I find it subjective. What offends others is not the same for the next person.

If Margaret felt that the comments and invasion of personal space were made purely because of her race then yes they are objectifying her purely on her race and that can be perceived as racism, in this instance I think it's ignorance but I didn't experience what she experienced!

I think it's dependent on the context and tone too. The people offending Margaret may have spoken to her in a tone that suggests they are superior or just simply objectifying her purely because of her race.

A slight derail and I probably can't articulate it well enough. I understand why you'd be nervous of complementing people but don't stop if you are simply complimenting a style you like. I thought that was just being nice.

Black women have had a powerful on art and culture throughout American history. They have been hypervisible in fact. Nina fucking Simone, Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou, Josephine Baker. These women were hugely successful, amongst whites and blacks, and they also made powerful statements about what it means to live as a black woman.

A11 i agree with that too. Let's not forget they also used the side doors instead of the front doors to get into the venues they performed in. This including all the other singers of their generation.

You mentioned Nina Simon and how she transcendent race, however you are forgetting the fact that she was denied entrance to study at a musical school in America based on her race even though she was accepted in to Julia before. If race didn't affect her in America, why do you think she moved to France?

The same reason Josephine baker moved to France, why is that ?
It's Because they felt more welcomed in France and listened to or acknowledge. The French have always been more accepting of black people to a degree. That is why they agreed to have lots of American soldiers to fight with them in France and Germany with the promise of offering citizenship which they later renege on. The people who joined the army and agreed to move thought they would have a better life in France. I don't know how french are now terms of race relation with black people.
If am not wrong, I think j. Baker even acted as a spy during the Second World War.

The only person I haven't paid any attention too is Toni Morrison, which I will out of interest.

Based on what you just wrote, I think (!) you are suggesting that Beyonce is like Rosa Parks because she "acted white" and "fit in with what white people wanted" to get famous and is now promoting her "black self" now she is famous. I think you have set your mind up on what you want to believe. Just to make it clear. I haven't said Beyoncé was on the same or similar level as rosa parks nor will her album be any close to their work. I however, believe the argument that pigmentation, education, and marriage played a part with rosa parks and the outcome from the court case.

By the way, Its not a crime to be on Twitter and I don't think rosa park tweets has ever appeared on my timeline.

peyia I'm another to derail here (sorry to those irritated!) I agree, it's the objectifying that makes it racist in my opinion. Context is always a massive factor.

I remember my cousin from a black majority country coming here to the UK I introduced her to my blonde blue eyed friend- she touched her hair and stared at her most of the time, she thought her skin going red was crazy! She was only 7 and reassuringly now as adults when I bring up that story she cringes. I live in a massively white majority area and have had comments on my hair my whole life- in my case always positive and from close friends curious. I don't mind one bit but, I can't of course speak for everyone and just because comments to me have always been positive I recognise that this isn't the case for everyone. I certainly wouldn't want my friends to have stopped being curious- I had my own curiosities as a child. It's more difficult for adults because if they want to learn they can come across as ignorant and if they ignore then it can come across as racist.

End of derailment for me! Apologies.

This is some real interesting read!

I am not a Beyoncé fan but I am a very proud black woman and happy about lemonade. Beyonce is an entertainer and has used her work to speak up for a race she belongs too.

Let's not loose track of the purpose of the songs ( album).

Been feminist is in my opinion not for anyone to decide but beyonce herself.

Also it irritates me when people mention Africa like its a state or a country instead of a continent that has over hundred of tribes ( people) that live, speak, eat, dress e.t.c totally different from each other.

Back to the topic on discussion, Beyonce is and has always been a black woman with both black parents. If I decide to stay with my husband due to him cheating is 100% my business and right. The only reason why we know so much about jay z is bcos their lives are out there, wot do u know ur husbands are doing right now. There is a lot of thought, emotion and so on that goes into keeping and staying in a marraige and divorce is not always the answer to every marital problem that arises due to cheating. ( each to their own) as a mother and a wife it is much deeper than just getting a divorce which is her right to figure out not urs or mine. That's y I believe educating our daughters properly about taking the basic steps and decisions in regards to marriage is so important than thinking am in love, I'm going have an amazing wedding. Marriage is not a walk in the park and it shouldn't be portrayed that way as everyone seems to fall inove instantly these days that's why divorce is at its peak.

Racism is a very dicey subject and been from both white and black heritage I would not even venture into it, as I believe ignorance and selfishness is one of the biggest reasons why racism still exist. Who embedded it in black minds, souls and hearts about preferring a lighter race?, who created bleaching and toning products? Who conquered parts of the world and making lighter people have privileges whilst the darker ones suffered yet leaving power of governance to the darker ones when these conquerors left and claiming to give independence to owners of the land which resulted in a lot of blood shed?.

It's so much deeper than beyonce making lemonade or a discussion on Mumsnet about it. Prejudice and racism exist unfortunately both in the same race & different races. Bleaching or toning not only exist in the black community but in Asian, South american or anywhere that doesn't predominantly have a white race.

The question is why do all think one race is superior! Unfortunately, it's not the fault, choice or idea of the majority of that so called superior race but a minority who believe in holding on to power.

Appreciate Beyonce for an effort she has made to highlight a new generation on equality. The young growing won't pick up the books a lot of people have mentioned till they are a lot older n better educated about the world they live in but will hear lemonade as a song or debate engulfed around it which is very powerful.

Stop deviating from the purpose or message. It's not about Beyonce but about the words that carry meaning. Don't be sidetracked about the crap littering the message in the music. I don't give a damn about Beyonce, her husband if he cheated or not, if she is bleaching - toning or not, if she is making money or not, if it is a publicity stunt or not. I haven't bought lemonade but listened to it for FREE.

At the end of the day, Beyoncé has released an album for public consumption, and everybody is talking about it (and also now taking more interest in her personally).
Which was of course the intention, no artist releases a commercial album and hopes for less than the Number 1 spot, and a visible platform to attract public interest in their material. It's been a very lucrative move really.

Not going to read the thread because I know it's gone off on one. However I will say me and all my friends love our mental and rock music, indie too. But we will all readily admit we bloody love beyonce. It's very strange to hear a gruff biker fella say he likes 'that Be-yonc' and dance to Single Ladies.

I have read most of the thread and skimmed over some of the points. I am glad that this discussion has started and I loved Destiny's Child when I was a child, I loved her fluff solo music too.

Recently, as a woman, I went off her Girls Rule The World, and Single Ladies smugness.

Now I have respect for her and I love that she is revealing a side of her that none of us new about.

I have nothing useful to say but I am happy about this thread.

Has anyone been reading azealia banks tweets? I have to say I agree with her whole heartedly that this album is the antithesis of feminism.

This album again portrays the myth that black women are cheated on, hurt, bitter and broken as a collective.

I can't stand Azealia Banks; she'll say anything for attention and she's anything but a role model. No one can speak for an entire race/gender but I'm much more comfortable with Beyonce representing than Azealia. She's a homophobic, racist attention seeker.

It's a shame because I think some of the points Azealia has made in the past have been spot on.

But any positive message she has is lost because she doesn't seem to have the intelligence or maturity to express herself fully without being disgusting and hateful.

She calls herself a womanist yet her homophobia totally goes against womanist ideals.

Did anyone read the review if her opening night in Atlanta yesterday? She dedicated Halo to her husband who she loves very much and he was sat at the front glowing. Two years ago she made an album practically showing us how much sex they were having so, what are we supposed to think? If he's such an ass why is she still with him?

Moonstruck...your post about your daughter rang so many bells with me and I totally get you and what you meant about Beyoncé embracing her blackness more now she has a child.
My firstborn is a blond and blue Northern European boy (DP side!) but my daughter is a walking testament to the Middle Eastern origin I only found out about when she was a few months old!

Myself...I'm hard to place...could be anywhere that produces dark and olive peeps, but DD just looks the part and because of this I've been gently introducing bits of ME culture (I'm completely deracinated, tbh so I'm getting it from recipe books and visits to the ME, among other sources). It's like I owe it to her...I went through life looking like a (somewhat dark) white European but she won't and I have to build her up to take on the world and I totally get what you say upthread (might have said that already...).

On the subject of Beyoncé becoming more black...let's not forget that she's growing and developing as a person (how old was she in Destiny's Child?) and it's perfectly OK for anyone - woman, man, black, white, to change or intensify their views as they mature.

Having said all this, I haven't seen/heard Lemonade yet and I'm not a huge fan of B, so I can't comment much more.

This album again portrays the myth that black women are cheated on, hurt, bitter and broken as a collective
Let's see.

Are black women in America hurt because their sons have high chances of dying from gun violence, police brutality, imprisonment and being undereducated than any other race in America ? On top of that its one of those issues that does not discriminate among the black class system. A young black man is a young black man.

The video does not show brokenness at all. The whole video is based on the collective of women in arms with one another from beginning to end. you only see men for a few seconds. Most is women holding hands and Kumbayaring one another. How is that not a metaphor for female solidarity.

The bitterness bit is her trying to explain why he would cheat (even here she is surrounded by women) , the woman (women) being raped, or having sex in a marriage she does not feel loved or willing.
That can apply to anybody in that situation not just black women.

The other thing is that if you were to remove the few seconds where she throws the ring you get a completely different message to the whole video.
More about self discovery. The 'he' is actually a prop for it to make sense.

How is it wrong to talk about the sex slaves or prostitution?

Brand azealia identifies her self as a womanist. Maybe she should go and discover why it came about because the things I have mentioned are some of the reasons why. The issues that would solely affect black women and other disadvantage groups of women whom feminism does not help due to lack of understanding and experience or when they do try to help, they have the god complex and superiority over the people by dictating what is and how it should be done from their point of view.
The whole video offered questions rather than answers. It's a statement of what is

Believe me, I struggle with the whole not leaving her husband bit, but hey, that's her business and not mine to judge. Her mother separated from her dad a few times, I thought she would have learnt not to make the same mistakes, maybe she is referring to her mother, who knows. More than likely it's a mixture.

I stopped listening to Azealia a long time ago. She needed help at one point and I hope she got it. A lot of bitterness and hurt too because the world was against her. the pot calling the kettle black. Didn't she trying bleaching too or was that a joke to get record sales ?

I dislike Beyonce. I am shocked that she is singing about or she is apparently not ashamed to be black, yet I have never seen her with her natural hair. She wears wigs resembling straight or wavy European hair. How can that be empowering to black women?
I've never seen white women struggle every day before work trying to get their afro wigs on before they leave the house.

I don't see her as a role model for young black girls. It's sad, someone as apparently powerful and influential as she is, should be doing better. So IMO, these are just lyrics. That performance of hers with the panther dancers was a disgrace - singing about all that, while waving European hair extensions on her head. It's all about money.

No offence to those of you who wear weaves or straight hair - we do what makes us happy. Life is too short. I just do not follow beyonce - everything she does is meticulously planned. No, she will not dump Jay Z.

But it is offence to those who wear weaves or straight hair. Black women's hair being so political comes from a disgusting misogynoir narrative, in the first instance; There are photos of Beyonce online with her natural hair, particularly after the birth of her child, there for anyone to see.

Black women cannot speak about empowerment, or feminism, or sexism, or our every day experiences unless our hair is wholly natural thus making us the "right type" of woman. Female civil rights activists were not all "Angela Davis" style, many wore wigs, relaxed their hair etc particularly during the 50s an 60s and still fought for their rights, as tough as anyone out there, right through to the 70s/80s. As tough as those men who started politicising black women's hair, were raising fists and shouting about unity and black power, but behind closed doors had black women doing the bulk of the organisation's work, whilst they themselves went with "Becky with the good hair" and jumped through hoops to hide that from the eyes of the world

Every other nation of women can wig, weave etc - but when black women do it, its an issue and that is very telling in itself. Its one reason why most of us take zero notice of dissenters, who will always find a reason to present a black woman as "not the right type of woman" - whilst uplifting another who IS the right type based solely on how she looks, dresses and does her hair. Just like that

I've seen mention made upthread somewhere of Erykah Badu being a better "role model" than Beyonce. For me and many women I know, she is not, actually. Its all a game, women being set against each other. Erykah Badu is a woman with 3 children 3 different baby daddys and got naked in a videoclip, not tastefully naked either - that, I wouldnt necessarily judge her on but given that Beyonce is a married woman within a family unit, its laughable Badu is being put forward as black women's ideal simply because she has natural hair, dresses the part, and sings about a "consciousness ideal" she isn't even living.

Badu at the moment is blaming women wearing shorter skirts for being a temptation to men and increasing incidences of rape. I find her victim blaming abhorrent, as do many, given the Twitter backlash against her - we women must cover up totally head to toe, so as not to be a "trial " to men. its ever the black woman's fault. The hypocrisy of misogynoir/misogyny and those women who buy into it, truly stinks. So many dissecting Beyonce (glad to see most is in a good and measured way) but also some criticising her deeply, whilst what Badu is currently saying doesnt seem to even register outside the black woman's experience of hidden assaults and justification of rape

Beyonce is false, Badu is not. Ridiculously ironic

Beyonce can wear whatever she likes on her head, as can any woman. Many women start coming to an age of enlightenment in life so regarding her life and music and lyrics, why shouldn't she?

People need to leave black women alone.. Yes many of us like messing with our hair, wigs weaves dye etc.we like experimenting with clothes, we love fashion, we don't all think in uniform fashion we can change our thoughts dreams processes in life. We are not another species - we are women like any other and just as all other women we are multi-faceted and don't want, need or appreciate being put into 1 box. Much of what Beyonce is doing now can relate to all women, not just black women. & thats all good.

Very well said MistressDeeCee!

Beyonce's hair is apparently straighter than people would believe, her hair type is not the same as her daughter's. Just as my hair type is not the same as my mums. Beyonce had her hair pulled at school by other black girls because of its texture (she says). Wouldn't this class as a black issue or are we not inclusive of all our sisters?

We all black, and we do not look the same. I look more like Beyonce than India Arie. But I identify with both for different reasons. Nobody should tell me who to look up to, I can make my own decisions.

... my ultimate hero is Jill Scott tho .

It's sad to see black women are still being attacked in this post.
It gets tiresome.

MistressDeeCee, I completely agree with your post.

I haven't seen the videos - just listened to the album on Radio One podcast. I've got the office to myself today and I'll be listening to it on repeat all day. I love love love it for so many reasons and I will be buying my first ever Beyonce album with Lemonade (though I have liked much of her work and had a few singles I've never bought a B album).

There's so much to take in. It's like she is ripping Jay Z a new one with every play, but that is the most superficial layer of the album. As has been discussed here there is so much more going on. Loving the production style she has used.

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I will be back to do so.

You can listen to the album at the Radio One Beyonce Listening party here - starts at about 1 hour 2 minutes.
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0784yjc

It's disheartening to see that most of the criticism being aimed towards Beyonce here has been about her appearance and relationship.

There has been nither confirmation or denial about what happened between her and her husband yet the speculation from a few songs has been enough to label her as a bad role model/feminist.

She has also never confirmed that she bleaches her skin yet people are willing to say she can't be a proud black woman off the back of a few before and after pictures found on Google.

And now she is being criticised for trying to bring to attention the terrible things happening in America right now because she has never been political in her music before. Apparently people are not allowed to change?

I'm not a fan of Beyonce, in fact, I find her blatant and unapologetic plagiarism really shitty but I still admire what she's doing right now.

Women can truly be their own worst enemies.

Oooh, thanks for the link, MyName.