to want to see the will?

[tremble]

NC for this, just in case. We've just found out a distant relative has died, and the funeral was yesterday. My DS and I are pretty angry that we weren't told, as we knew the relative when we were children and would like to have paid our respects.

We found this out today when we got a letter from relative's sister saying that the relative hadn't signed their will, so we and a few cousins and aunts etc will inherit a share of their estate. But the sister says she wants to honour the unsigned will and has asked us to revoke our shares so she can do this. We hadn't expected to inherit anything so we're not fussed about the money which probably won't be much, but we thought we'd ask to see the unsigned will so we can be sure that if we give up our shares then it goes to the right people.

But the sister says we're not allowed see it. She won't even tell us which solicitor is handling the estate and got pretty angry when we asked, saying we had no right. Her behaviour seems a little suspicious but we haven't really any experience with wills. Is it unreasonable to ask to see it? And what would you do?

I have no idea of any previous will. Just realised that AugustaFinkNottle may have a point saying they might have not signed because they changed their mind.

I may be more cynical but perhaps the sister wrote the will and was hoping to get her brother to sign it.

Usually executors need to work together with a firm of solicitors as part of the process requires 'swearing' by a legal notary.

Often excecutors will be family members and do a lot of the leg work to keep costs down (& if there is no will, they are usually next of kin) but you just cannot complete a deceased person's affairs without involving solicitors in some parts of the process unless the estate is of a nominal value (I think it was around £5,000 in England & Wales).

Lots of good advice coming in so thick and fast that I can't keep up!

Maryz the sister will have emptied the house when relative went into a care home (which we weren't told about). Not really bothered about that stuff to be honest, she is welcome to it. And thank you for the !

ratspeaker Thanks, I've just had a look too, and will try to contact the sherriff court on Monday. None of us lived anywhere near the deceased so cannot go and look.

Have been contacted by another recipient of the letter. I know she is in dire straits just now and said even if it was just a couple of hundred pounds it would be food on the table for her.

Agree that she cannot be executor if there is no signed will. And agree that the mysterious unsigned will probably doesn't even exist yet (until your relative writes it herself). You cannot possibly sign something saying you want the money to go according to great aunt's wishes if you don't know what her wishes were (because you can't see the invisible will).

Instead, inherit your share of the money and if you think it fair you can consider giving some of it back to this aunt if you genuinely believe she should have it.

I know from experience she will not be able to close bank accounts over a certain amount or sell a house without being officially named as Executrix Dative and applying for Confirmation.

In Scotland children are entitled to a share of a third ( or half if there is no spouse) of the deceased net moveable estate ( ie whats in banks, building soc, premium bonds, and so on ).
This was made clear to us when we wrote our wills, you cant legally exclude a child from getting this in Scotland.

Actually Andylion she did have Power of Attorney....

I think we will be making a few phonecalls when the weekend is over.

Maryz is spot on with the intestacy splitting. She can't be the executor as there is no valid will.

Also if any of the potential beneficiaries under the intestate laws claim any sort of benefits then they need to be very aware that signing a Deed of Variation can land them in bother under deprivation of assets. Now obviously if X left £300 and you all decide to give it to Y rather than splitting it into 25 shares they are unlikely to be any repercussions, but if someone signs away thousands of pounds then they could be in the shit.

She needs to be made aware that this is a serious procedure with proper channels she has to follow. I'm not sure if intermeddling applies in the same way when the estate is intestate, but if it is then she's in danger of doing so. She can't seriously expect people to sign away their rights to something without actually telling them what it is.

Power of Attorney is irrelevant. It ends when the person dies and if she uses that to obtain/move money or do anything then she could land herself in bother.

Tbh I'd take the view that if the deceased didn't sign the will then no-one can be sure what their intent was.

Yes it may be they just didn't get round to it, but it could also be that they had decided that they didn't want their assets to be split that way.

So I would take the view that the estate morally should be split according to the rule of law - regardless of what the sibling says.

I need to write a will, reading all this

We had PoA for my late MIL. Once someone has died the PoA ceases to be in operation so you cannot access or use the deceased' assets until it has been through the appropriate process.

It's interesting a PoA was in place because that does imply that the deceased did not have the capacity to deal with their own affairs ie. sign this other will. I would be very surprised if a legal proper signed will (before this new unsigned one) was not made at the time the PoA was created. It would be very odd indeed if that had not been done.

That's an excellent point lalalalyra. I think one or two may be claiming benefits and you are right that claimants cannot refuse money from another source. A friend got a warning about that a few years ago.

I don't think there will be assets to sell, ratspeaker. Probably just a bank account and perhaps some other cash.

Yes, Maryz, the sister has children and grandchildren but from what I can see they won't inherit anything as the sister will receive it.

Do you know what your relative's housing situation prior to going into the care home was? Did they own their own house? How long were they in the care home? That may give you an idea of potential value as well. If the house was sold (or is still to be sold) then once they got down to around 20k (I think it's about 23) they would have stopped paying for their care home so there could be around that left.

Actually SilverBirch she said the PoA and will were drawn up by the same solicitor but didn't say they happened at the same time. You'd think they'd have to be, wouldn't you, otherwise would the deceased might not be considered fit to signed the will. But if they were made at the same time then it is odd they weren't signed at the same time.

Please write wills, especially if you live in Scotland.
My mum thought everything would automatically come to myself and siblings.
As soon as the banks etc heard there was no will everything was frozen.
We had to put her funeral on a credit card ( later found out that the insurance may have sent cheque to funeral directors )

Btw I wound up her estate without a solicitor (as she'd previously sold her house , if she hadn't that would be a different story)

Anyway I had to do the apply to Sheriff Court to because me Executor Dative.
( luckily someone pointed me to the book to get the correct wording for the application)
As she had money in the bank it was classed as a large estate way back then.

From then on it was ingathering of the estate.
But the reason I said make a will especially in Scotland, you legally need a Bond of Caution ( pronounced. Kayshun ) if you die intestate before you can get Confirmation. This costs £100s. Only certain companies will deal with this.
It would have been cheaper for mum to have paid a solicitor to write a will.

The deceased was in social housing last time I heard lalalalyra and I don't think that would have changed. I've no idea when they entered the care home as the sister didn't tell me. I only found out by chance last summer. All those Christmas cards wasted!

Did you apply to be executor before you started working on the estate ratspeaker, or after getting the estate together? I was wondering if the sister planned to apply afterwards, although she seems to be rather quick off the mark in asking us to give up our shares.

Did you have to provide proof to other beneficiaries that you were the legally endorsed Executor Dative? Well done, by the way , on doing all that work yourself, it sounds like a massive task to undertake.

There's no point chasing around trying to get a copy of the unsigned will - you don't even know whether it existed.

Being in social housing might mean low savings, but it was very normal in Scotland to live in a council house. My grandparents did their whole married life until they moved South to be closer to us grandkids. They got 'their' house the day before they married and they'd have lived there their whole lives if they hadn't moved and my Grandad had a good job so there is a chance your relative could have built up good savings. Also do check the house isn't listed for sale, or has been sold recently, because a lot of people bought their council house under right to buy.

If they had the lower savings limit of around 20k you'll be able to work out for yourself what kind of amount the sister would get compared to if she were to get the whole amount.

Do you know if they had both a Continuing Power of Attorney (finances) and a Welfare one? If it was combined then the POA could only be used after the relative couldn't make decisions for themselves. So you need to know the date of the will and the date of the POA registration.

Also if the solicitor drew up both the will and the POA, but didn't ensure the relative signed the will then they have obviously fucked up and someone needs to take said solicitor to task for causing all this hassle. I'd be pointing this out to your relative and telling her that for her sake you all need to take legal advice from someone else because this solicitor isn't reliable. I think her reaction to that may give you an insight into her thinking.

You can of course have a PoA in place whilst there is still mental capacity to take actions like sign a will. Sometimes people need other to act on their behave if they do no have the physical health to carry out their financial affairs and you should of course be acting according to their wishes and instructions.

I do wonder whether the unsigned will is pretty significant and together with the fact the sister does not want to give you the solicitor's details it may indicate that the deceased relative had decided against signing the will in the solicitors office for their own reasons.

The health POA can be a handy one. If it was registered before the new will was drawn up then it shows lack of capacity/fraud because the heath one can only be registered for use once the capacity is lost. It has to be drawn up before the capacity is lost. The finance one can be put in place before capacity is lost, but it does have to reflect that the person wants the attorney to have their powers while they still have the capacity.

Although all of these are side issues really. You can't realistically ask people to sign away their rights to something without telling them what it was. And the fact she didn't say "Look Uncle/Aunt Y has left £500. If we have to split it it's going to be a PITA and I paid for the food at the funeral/the cat's vet bill/whatever so do you mind signing this so I can just use it too offset?" suggests, to me anyway, that there could be a good amount of money at stake and, perhaps without realising it, she's asking the relatives on benefits to potentially land themselves in trouble.

It definitely sounds very dodgy but I can't get my head around what she's playing at.

I'm glad there is another potential beneficiary who smells a rat and isn't happy to give up their share too.

Please update when you know more OP.

What have you decided to do?

Thanks for all your advice, everyone. We've just posted a letter from four of us asking for contact details for the solicitor, a copy of the will and to see her authority to act as executor. Hopefully she has calmed down a little and will give a less irate response than my poor DSis got.

Yes, OVienna, will update.