To hate my pre-teen (12yo) right now?

[t33jay]

Having checked Parent Pay Transaction History we've realised he has been stealing money (sums approx £500) from us, then using the money to top up his cashless account in school via the machine. Sometimes in cornershops to buy sweets, but mostly to buy school dinners.

He is on packed lunch as we have told the school that he is on organic diet only to find out that he has been given a 'canteen access card' in school and this is what he has been using to buy ridiculous amount of food. He does not have the fingerprint access, hence the access card.

So gets his meals at home + snacks & pudding + packed lunch AND gets sweets + at least £10 worth of food from the canteen ON MOST DAYS!!!

Surely the schools should put a limit on the amount a child can spend on a day!?!!!!!!!

I have a meeting with the headmaster tomorrow. Give me more ammos, am going there all guns blazing!!!!

To say that I am livid is an understatement.

It seems to me, OP, as if your intentions are good but you have very little understanding of child psychology- and not a great deal of understanding of nutrition either.

Why on earth would bottled water be healthier than what comes out of the tap? Bottled water is just somebody else's tap water with huge additional environmental costs.

Again, there is no reason why organic food should make you less fat; that is not why people choose to go organic. Excess calories make you fat, but the additions that make non-organic food non-organic tend not to be calories. You can buy organic sugar and eat it all day- it still won't be good for you.

Ime if you try to argue with preteens you need to know your facts; if you are caught out once or twice, they will stop listening altogether.

You also need to be supremely logical, and not mix up different issues (his weight, his behaviour, organic food, exercise)- because preteen boys can spot a logical flaw a mile off.

And finally, you need to make it not about you. So much of your posts scream "we don't want to be embarrassed". When most parents would say "I am so worried about my son", you say that you don't want to be a laughing stock by having an overweight child. As if that somehow mattered more than his health and happiness and relationship with you and all the other serious issues that are at stake if you cannot get him to feel that you are on his side and want to help him.

Organic water contains traces of sheep's piss

Sorry, don't mean to be flippant. Yes I do

cory makes v good points.
I hope that the OP is still reading.

I think there are two separate issues going on here, really.

Just some general thoughts around the issues here ... I think it's much better if parents can have a much lighter touch around food choices. My DC have had school dinners throughout and I think it's good to give them that element of choice and independence over their own diet. Then we have a healthy evening meal together, cereal or toast for breakfast, also usually a healthyish snack when they get home from school, the odd treat when we're out such as an ice-cream in the park cafe. Just the whole feel of things is much more enjoying some tasty food together as a part of life. So, food has never needed to take centre stage, there's always too much else going on.
I'd think the most straightforward and helpful way forward here would be to talk with DS2 and then probably agree that he can have school dinners like his older brother. Include saying that it would have been better if he'd talked with you about wanting to do this rather than taking the money to go behind your back on this.
But I'd be reluctant to use words like "stealing" within a family, and I'd hope I'd never use the word "hate" about either of my DC, and definitely not in response to a situation like this one. Basically he's just taken things into his own hands to choose school dinner with his friends over a packed lunch from home (And that came to £500 over 7 mths)

Op sorry you're going through this. Sorry both of your ds's are going through this. You can turn this around. Parenting children can be very hard.
So you have one child at a grammar and one child not. Does that mean your second son failed his 11+? I failed. My schooling was awful. A lot of bullying, boys literally kicking other kids heads (when kicking someone heads in), intimidation.
I do wonder if your son feels like a failure on many fronts: education, his size, stealing, relationship with you, perhaps other things besides - he's a teensger. Regardless of all your well meaning intentions, you do appear to have a difficult family dynamic where you have a golden child (ds1) and a scapegoat (ds2).
He needs help and I think so do you. I do not think it's fair your son has packed lunches and I don't think it helps him with food consumption. He has access to his lunchbox on the way to school and mid morning. It is likely he is eating all the food before lunch and is hungry again at lunchtime. I would actually let him have school dinners, get the menu and discuss good food choices for him. There is a lot of conflicting information online. A paleo style diet is recommended by some doctors and is good for weight management/loss and reduces carb and sugar intake.
I would actually be seeking help from a child psychologist for you and your son (and family perhaps) if you are able to pay.

More thoughts: your son is coming up to an age where he is going to need more independence, and will increasingly see that his friends are getting it. At his age this would normally include pocket money or a monthly allowance, freedom to go into town on his own or with mates, in a few years time teenage parties (which will probably involve alcohol) and (in maybe 4 years time) a job of his own. This is going to be very, very difficult if he gets the idea that he has to be micro-managed because he cannot be trusted. Somehow it seems to me the only way to keep our older teens safe is to make them think of themselves as trustworthy people. And that foundation has to be laid now.

Don't think I don't know how difficult it is when you have a youngster that you don't feel confident about. I have dealt with a school refusing teen, a self-harming teen, and a suicidal teen (several actual attempts involving ambulances and hospitalisation). It's very difficult. But as the Crisis team pointed out to me one morning in hospital, controlling dc will not make her safe longterm: it will only make her believe that she does not have responsibility for her actions. So you need to find a way to negotiate this problem in a way that makes your ds feel good about himself for managing his health.

As for the stealing, I think it is perfectly ok to gently point out that you are disappointed that he went behind your back, but I think you should add that you think this may have been a one-off and that you would like to help him sort things out.

What I have found over nearly 20 years of parenting is that though consistency is always held up as the be-all and end-all of parenting, sometimes the recognition that a situation rises out of a unique problem does more than any consistent punishment would ever achieve.

OP, given that your DS has more than just a little pre-pubertal chub, I really do think you need to go with him to your GP. You absolutely do need help with the family dynamic but I think it would also be beneficial for you and him to be referred to a dietician (not a nutritionist - that's not the same). He's of an age where he needs to be taking charge, which is what he's been trying to do, but in a pretty destructive manner.

If he can talk with a professional about what good food choices look like, he's far more likely to be on board with it than if it comes from mum. With the best will in the world, when you're 12, mums know nothing. A professional is more likely to help him to learn that it's fine to have pizza with his mates, but he might want to lay off the chips on the side and follow it up with an apple instead of a chocolate muffin. Your role needs to be one of a facilitator, rather than a dictator, when it comes to diet.

This website offers a good model for working on getting the trust back (both ways). That is really important if you want to help your DS become healthier and happier. www.livesinthebalance.org/

"Usually on MN everyone condemns parents who let their children get overweight, and also condemn them using euphemisms and not facing the fact they are fat."

Not me. I am often on those threads trying pathetically to explain why the "tell fatteys how it is and control their diet" is so SPECTACULARLY HORRIFICALLY DANGEROUS and leads to misery, illness and MORE FATNESS. I hope some of those people I have been arguing with are on here and can see how fucked up their "common sense" approach is in practice.

I completely get where you're coming from op I think that you've just been a bit too forceful with language that comes over not great. However my son is 12 and two years ago was getting really teased about his weight he was in the top centile for weight and was carrying it around his tummy. He is at prep school he does 2 hours of games every day 6 days a week and until he was 8 was really slim. I spoke to him and said I would speak to the school but he also had to change eating so much junk and do swimming competitive training 2/3 week to slim him down. So moving on two years he's doing much better he is growing up and getting a good strong body, it is heart breaking to see your child being teased and not being able to eat what most other children can eat and get away with. I didn't want my son to get teased and there had to be a two pronged approach I had to speak to the school and encourage more aerobic exercise and be honest with his food choices. I wish you good luck

In my case, my mum controlling food and especially treats, made the 'forbidden fruit' even sweeter and more tempting - hence my eating habits becoming so bad when I left home. I never learned to moderate my own intake, and I developed a very strong learned behaviour that food was a treat - which persists to this day.

I fight, every day, against 'treating' myself with unhealthy food. I have widened the range of foods that I consider a treat, so it includes healthy things - cut-up pineapple, for example - I love it, and not having to prepare it makes it an easy treat. Or a salad of tomatoes, avocado, mozzarella and basil for my lunch. But I have also developed a list of other things that are treats for me - a new book, using a nice shower gel, painting my nails. I still find myself wanting to 'reward' myself with food, though - it is such an ingrained habit that fighting it is incredibly hard.

HowBad - my gp tried the 'tell fatty how it is' approach, when I visited him because I was badly depressed and needed urgent help. He banged on with this approach even when I was in tears and asking him to stop. He only stopped when I was on my feet, about to leave the surgery (and get in my car, in a highly distressed state). I put in a formal complaint about him to the surgery, and will never see him again, but I fear going to the doctor now, more than ever.

Not me. I am often on those threads trying pathetically to explain why the "tell fatteys how it is and control their diet" is so SPECTACULARLY HORRIFICALLY DANGEROUS and leads to misery, illness and MORE FATNESS. I hope some of those people I have been arguing with are on here and can see how fucked up their "common sense" approach is in practice. This!
My Dsis used this approach on me vindictively because she was jealous I was skinny but going through puberty - I ended up starving and binging and generally having a fucked up relationship with food - how I wish I could go back and tell myself not to listen.

This boy sounds incredibly unhappy. I bet he hates himself for being fat, hates himself for being different (that his parents are trying to get the school to treat him differently from the other pupils), hates himself for not being as good as his brother, hates himself for stealing, hates himself for food cravings, hates himself for being slow in football, hates himself for basically everything - to the point where what's the point in tinkering around the edges? It's all just basically shit. you might as well steal £10 a day if you think you're a big fat crap loser anyway. And even your mum hates you.

OP you have a huge job to do in parenting this child back to decent self esteem. You've messed up. I know all this "organic" crap and that sort of thing were probably decisions made with love behind them, but it's all so wrong-headed. I agree with the poster who suggested professional help (family therapy). you have no idea how to parent and you are losing this boy and perhaps wrecking his life.

Young people at secondary school have vastly varying diets. I went to school with boys who were like rakes who I saw eat about 2000 calories every day in lunch alone. They must have totalled a good 5000 a day. (it blew my mind - I was allowing myself between 800 and 900. Yeah, healthy diet, fruit galore. tragic.) Some young people need to eat like that. Schools need to cater for that. But not all. this is why we need to empower our children to make their own choices based on their own good self esteem and their own bodies. Not take control away, doom them to feel shit, which gives them no platform of strength from which to take proper care of themselves.

You said earlier "god help me". English people do not often use that idiom nowadays. What culture are you from and is a guilt-inflected version of religion any part of it?

Hi OP,

What an ugly thread this has become

People telling you off for making organic packed lunches (why do people feel cross about the organic lunches?! ), MN hates middle class markers like organic food

You are also slated for not noticing £500 gone, but in small amounts it coukd easily go unnoticed over 7 months imo.

and for calling him "short and stout"(you say he is 4ft9 and 9 stone If I remember, which is seriously obese), he must be fairly "big" or whatever the accepted word is now.

Anyway, aibu is odd like that

At that weight, you must have had him checked out by GP? Checked for Prader Willi or other syndromes? Impulse control issues?

Is there a pastoral care worker at school you can talk to (or better, your son can talk to?)

Have you asked your son WHY he stole the money and felt the need to buy all that food? It would be good to get to the bottom of "why" he did it.

Good luck

Op - my ds is 13, in year 8.
He gets FSM, so he is entitled to a main dish plus desert everyday.
Last year, when he started secondary, he also started earning money walking a friend's dog, so he had money in his pocket, and a whole canteen to choose from and a poundland on the way home from school.

he went a little mad. He shunned the nice roast chicken dinner and desert and bought pizza or chips every day. After school they went to poundland or the chip shop and stuffed crap. He guzzled can after can of coke and fanta.
He came home to nice home cooked balanced healthy meal, and wasn't interested as he was full of chips and fizzy drinks.

He has always been very slim, but I could see he was starting to put on weight.

I talked to him about healthy eating, and he said yeah, yeah, and didn't change his behaviour at all.

Then this year, he decided to get fitter, and after a talk at school became interested in how much sugar there is in stuff. I notice that although he still eats pizza for lunch every day, he has stopped visiting the chip shop, and eats much less chocolate, he chooses not to drink fizzy drinks everyday too.

I think it is quite normal for kids starting secondary to go a bit mad over being able to choose from the canteen, being free and out from under parents or primary school dinner ladies scrutiny. It does balance after a while, if you let it.

I totally get that he has food problems and you want him to loose weight, I get the frustration and distress with stealing, I get that you want a daily limit on the card, but you also have to get that he is growing up, and moving out from your control, and you need to find a new way of approaching this.

Your son can't help being overweight and from his point of view he's being treated unfavourably compared with his brother.

Obviously there is never any excuse for stealing but your posting style makes me uncomfortable because you keep writing in capitals (shouting) and saying you hate him is horrible. He's a child.

£500 over seven months is an average of something more like £3.60 per day…

/misses point spectacularly

MN hates middle class markers like organic food hmm

This is just goady nonsense BabyGanoush.

I have some organic food in my diet. I don't make it exclusively organic, though, as there are far too many air miles involved, very often. I still believe that the OP's organic diet for her DS is hugely misguided.

"why do people feel cross about the organic lunches?!"

I can't speak for anyone else, but the organic lunches seem, to me, to be an example of pointless meddling. There is no harm in providing organic food to children, but making a huge deal about only organic lunches is control freakery and is going to make the child feel weird - eating organic food is not weird, but going on about him only having organic food is going to make him feel set apart. the organic lunches are an example of misunderstanding what will help and what will hinder

why do people feel cross about the organic lunches?! confused:

a) because the OP believes organic means her ds will lose weight

b) because the OP does not seem to understand what organic means (bottled water)

c) because the OP does not seem willing to handle this in a way that will allow for the sensibilities of a 12yo boy

Umm add:
d) because only this son has to eat Organic lunches - his brother has school lunches

But this is not about Organic lunches - I have a weekly organic veg box, eat Organic eggs and prefer organic meat FFS. But organic doesn't equal weight loss (as one look at me would tell you).

And anyway there are bigger issues, including the rights of 12 year olds to make some decisions about their lives.

*Surely the schools should put a limit on the amount a child can spend on a day!?!!!!!!!

I have a meeting with the headmaster tomorrow. Give me more ammos, am going there all guns blazing!!!!*

OP, I assume you have realised that the issue here is not with the school and you have not gone in to your meeting with the head teacher "guns blazing" ?

Limiting the amount a child can spend in a day would have only limited how much your child STOLE from you. It wouldn't have stopped or prevented him stealing at all?

As for the reasons why he has been stealing - sounds like there is a lot of work you need to do there!! Your current methods aren't working.

*Surely the schools should put a limit on the amount a child can spend on a day!?!!!!!!!

I have a meeting with the headmaster tomorrow. Give me more ammos, am going there all guns blazing*

OP, I assume you have realised that the issue here is not with the school and you have not gone in to your meeting with the head teacher "guns blazing" ?

Limiting the amount a child can spend in a day would have only limited how much your child STOLE from you. It wouldn't have stopped or prevented him stealing at all?

As for the reasons why he has been stealing - sounds like there is a lot of work you need to do there!! Your current methods aren't working.

Have you ever stop to think that his eating habits were stablished at home?? BY YOU?

If he likes to eat junk food so much how much junk food have you allowed him to eat freely before you decided "oh, he's overweight, I'll cut it all down until he gets skinny"?

The organic food diet should have been stablished when he started on solids, so he'd have had the chance to develop a preference for that above fatty/junk food. Try to force an organic diet down on him when he's 12 yo sounds very unfair and really may cause him to develop an eating disorder.

At this point all you can do is advise and try to educate his food habits. Prohibitions will only make things worse, as you have already seen.

Hacker I think op understands this. I'm following the thread to see if she shows up and to support her. She needs help and solutions.