To think the state pension is a benefit

[hettyGreek]

I've noticed alot of "The state pension is not a benefit" groups that have sprung up on Facebook etc.

I understand that these people "paid their stamp" and all that was asked of them. But this NI money was not put away in a saving account for them, it just went into general taxation. If it had of just been put away in a savings account the state pension would be far far less than it is at the moment and no triple lock.

Aibu?

StKilda - yes when I went to university in the 60s, about 6% went - by 1970 and post Robbins, it about doubled. I was trying to make the point that not all pensioners are poor -far from it and their relative position in the last decade has increased enormously. Those of us who did and are doing well should be paying our fair share - the triple lock should go and WFA eats should be rolled up into pension credit or not paid if you are on the higher rate of tax or be taxed. The present situation is a nonsense - younger generations are suffering while many of us older ones have never been so well off.

eats etc

The problem though is if the pension and other benefits are not universal ones, it will only be a matter of time before only the very very poorest get them.

'The people working now and paying tax and NI are paying todays pensions'....so by that reckoning people who are just about to collect their pensions have been paying for people who dont work, wont work, and live off benefits, some never having worked at all!

I'm not suggesting that the state pension should be anything other than non means tested,. However, the trend with benefits in general has been towards increased means testing - the coalition even did it with child benefit. Many other European countries still have a much more contribution based benefits system.

benefit or not the basic state pension is amongst the lowest in Europe (from 2013 but worth reading)
conversation.which.co.uk/money/uk-state-pension-comparison-serps/

I personally say my Husbands state pension is not a 'benefit' he paid in for other peoples pensions for 45 years and now its his turn.

I too have paid in for 46 years and as a working age person if I lost my job I would get 6 months cont based JSA, after that I would have to claim benefits, however for benefits there are conditions to be met, one of those conditions is household income, and due to my husbands pensions I would get nothing.

And that's the difference, for benefits you have to meet conditions, for the basic state pension (with NO means tested add ons) a person has already met those conditions.

But of course this is just another nasty pensioner bashing thread isn't it

Interesting that our state pension is amongst the lowest in Europe. So if other countries, most of which are poorer than us can afford that, why can't we?

cleaty although the article was published in 2013 the amount stated is actually the new flat rate pension of £155 coming into force this year and a lot of todays pensioners only get the old rate of £115 and not all will be eligible for actual means tested benefits as a top up.

I assumed todays pensioners would get the new rate?

Made in 1995 I may actually be closer to your dad's generation than you but the meningitis jab is a very recent thing. I had meningitis 18 years ago. Still class myself as of the current generation :o

Cleaty - the people in other countries pay more in tax/ social insurance

cleaty no anyone who retired before April this year will still get the old rate of basic and serps, anyone who retires after this date and has already accrued more than the new flat rate (like me) will get more than the flat rate due to the protected payment I will get over £200 a week but that's the same pension I would have got if I was pension age today so I will be paying NICs for the next 5 years (until I retire) but wont get any more than that.

Its also changed to 35 years contributions for the new flat rate instead of 30 years contributions for the old basic ( it was 40 years NICs for a pension when I started work)

Bourdic link please

Oldsu - I tried to find a comprehensive link but the systems are different in the various European countries for example, what do employee/employer contributions count towards. In France, where people retire on a minimum of 50% of final salary, an employee pays between 18% and 23% of their salary in contributions ( this excludes income tax) and employers pay 40-45% - in both cases this includes health care as well as the usual angle of benefits.

angle range

According to my statement, the flat rate is £115.00 For every year you work over the age of 60, you get an extra £5 per week, so I will never get £155.00, even working an extra 6.5 years. Not everyone will get a flat rate of £155.00.
Current Pensioners on the flat rate of £115.00, who carry on working do not pay national insurance.
Therefore if you now have to work the extra years, you still pay national insurance and only accrue an extra £5.00 per week for every extra year you work. That's thousands of pounds to lose

I understood that the new maximum pension is £155 per week, and if you already have 35 years service by April this year, extra years don't add anything.

I have over 35 years. I don't qualify for my pension until 2024. I still have to pay NI for the intervening eight years.

Still, I hope I do better than my late husband, who never got to claim a penny of his pension.

Presumably it matters to those people because they have internalised the message that receiving a 'benefit' is something to be ashamed of? Wow, the media rhetoric of scroungers etc has really done its work.

Surely nobody who has paid in (or would willingly pay in) their fair share should ever feel ashamed at claiming what they need and are entitled to. Only people who cheat the system (tax evaders and benefit cheats) should feel ashamed.

Bourdic - Most of that is for health insurance. The French Health care system is better than ours, and costs a lot more.

My view is that if you can afford to live without state intervention you should take the responsibility and do it. My PILS have millions of pounds in offshore investments and still claim state pensions, winter fuel allowance etc. To be fair they don't use the NHS but when I suggested that they shouldn't be taking these benefits they were incredulous. We don't live in the UK/EU any more so view the ridiculously generous system differently now. IMHO it doesn't matter what generation you are from or how much you have paid in. If you don't need it, don't take it.

If I had millions of pounds, I would not claim it. But it can not be common. If I had millions of pounds as a pensioner, I would not be living in Britain either.

My PILS have millions of pounds in offshore investments and still claim state pensions, winter fuel allowance etc

That is very unethical IMO. But I know plenty that do as "they've worked hard their whole life" when in fact they retired at 60.

I wouldn't mind the triple lock if it was given to all benefits. JSA is such a tiny amount of the welfare bill yet its frozen until 2020.

My parents sound the same age as Bourdic and are very much of the same view.

hetty - good point about the triple lock applying to all benefits. AS for not claiming a non-means tested benefit if you don't need it, I just don't think its an acceptable policy to leave that decision up to individuals. As I said ^^, WFA etc should be rolled up into pension credit, or taxed or not paid to higher tax payers - all those solutions would be easy and cheap to implement. As for the pension itself, I think it would be very dangerous to decide a cut off income/wealth when it wasn't paid - this has started with CB and it opens the door for it to go further. Given the present situation ( not old enough for free TV licence) I claim my state pension, have a bus pass and get the WFA. I wouldn't dream of not claiming any of those because, given this heartless government, I make far better choices than they ever would about how I redistribute this money that I don't need.

My Dad gets £20k a year with his pension from work and the state pension. Plus winter fuel, free bus pass, senior citizens' rates at leisure facilities and no mortgage.

That's what I earn and have to support a family on.

heron - the problem with your situation is not what your father gets ( apart from the WFA and bus pass) but that you ( and many like you) are so poorly paid