To think the state pension is a benefit

[hettyGreek]

I've noticed alot of "The state pension is not a benefit" groups that have sprung up on Facebook etc.

I understand that these people "paid their stamp" and all that was asked of them. But this NI money was not put away in a saving account for them, it just went into general taxation. If it had of just been put away in a savings account the state pension would be far far less than it is at the moment and no triple lock.

Aibu?

The inter-generational debate is very complicated, obviously.

The 'older generation' plainly have a number of advantages over the younger one. These advantages indisputably include housing and pensions, more or less the two most important [financial] things that we spend all our lives working and saving towards. The 'younger generation' also plainly have a number of opportunities that older ones didn't, such as cheaper food, travel, consumer goods, etc, though the fairly strong consensus is that these aren't important enough to outweigh the key disadvantages that they face.

What does this mean?

Dunno.

Certainly I'd agree that those [thankfully relatively few] middle age people who selfishly actively campaign against the interests of the young [NIMBYism against normal, sensible housing developments that'd have been waved through without hesitation 40 yrs ago is the big, obvious, one] frankly deserve to be turned into pet food.

Certainly I'd agree that pensioner benefits to be evaluated with the same open mind as those targeted at working age people.

And that's about it. No need for inter-generational unpleasantness etc.

The Government have made it possible for people to cash in their private pension before they retire. If they make the state pension means tested, it will impact on those most who are above the poverty line, but not well off. For these people, it would make sense to cash in any private pension and be totally reliant on a means tested pension.

And a lot of women do not get the full state pension as it is. Lots of women paid the married stamp or did not work enough years, and now find themselves divorced and in poverty.

Well off pensioners are taxed anyway. Sure take away free bus pass etc from them. But that will be a political decision as it costs more to means test for this than give it to everyone. So it will not save money. Both sides of my family live in areas without good public transport, so none of them use the free bus pass, even though my parents are very poor.

When I was young, most people lived in rented housing. I did not expect to own my own home. Getting a mortgage was very very difficult and only given to people who were reasonably well off and in very stable jobs. And only the man's income was taken into account.

And buy to let is the real issue. It used to be if first time buyers could not afford to buy the cheapest houses, the prices fell. Buy to lets have pushed the price of those houses up. But criticising those who buy to let gets a strong negative reaction on here.

cleaty Yes, to the buy to let stuff. It's wrecked the lower end of the property market, as DD has found now that she is trying to buy somewhere.

Re bus passes - DB broke his neck to apply for this as soon as he could. He used it once in the first year because, like your family, he lives in an area with poor public transport.

Yes what used to happen is most people bought a very cheap property, built up some equity in it, and then sold it and bought a more expensive house. And I have been around when those properties dropped in price. It was not uncommon. Because as soon as prices outstripped the wages of first time buyers, nobody could buy them.

That natural balancing mechanism has gone. Don't blame pensioners for that. Blame people around you who have enough money and have invested in buy to let.

I've just started a new job, and the civil service pension comes with a 20% employer contribution. I'm surprised that there's not more of a fuss made about that tbh.

That is because Civil Servants advise the Government. The Civil Service pension is one of the few that has not been substantially cut, along with MPs.

I know, and I'm very happy to be getting it, but I'm still shocked that there is not more of a fuss made.

*TFPsa

The inter-generational debate is very complicated, obviously.

The 'older generation' plainly have a number of advantages over the younger one. These advantages indisputably include housing and pensions, more or less the two most important [financial] things that we spend all our lives working and saving towards. The 'younger generation' also plainly have a number of opportunities that older ones didn't, such as cheaper food, travel, consumer goods, etc, though the fairly strong consensus is that these aren't important enough to outweigh the key disadvantages that they face.

What does this mean?

Dunno.

Certainly I'd agree that those [thankfully relatively few] middle age people who selfishly actively campaign against the interests of the young [NIMBYism against normal, sensible housing developments that'd have been waved through without hesitation 40 yrs ago is the big, obvious, one] frankly deserve to be turned into pet food.

Certainly I'd agree that pensioner benefits to be evaluated with the same open mind as those targeted at working age people.

And that's about it. No need for inter-generational unpleasantness etc.*

Thanks! If I could like a post I would, that's a very balanced and fair post!

I was pissed the other day as MIL (who has never really worked) went on about me being on benefits for a few weeks (Contributions JSA) when she has had a state pension for many years, uses her bus pass and jokes about what shes spending the WFA on.

I don't begrudge the elderly receiving a state pension but there has been a change in the (overall) wealth in the last 30 years. OAPS were poorer as a whole, and this was reflected in the benefits they received (including bus passes etc). Now a lot are better off than the younger generations, largely due to having homes that have gone up in value but also due to final salary (private) pensions, yet are often still treated as if they are the poorer members of society. Free bus passes for example - in my parents' village the bus to get into the nearerst town costs £5.50 return - way too expensive for a family with a low (or even average) income. Yet pensioners, even those who have a lot of money, get it for free. It would benefit the community much more as a whole to help the younger inhabitants more. As it is, the village is becoming an impossible place to live for young families and is worse off because of this. Of course, if younger people don't vote, this is only going to get worse in general.

I don't begrudge help for pensioners on a low income, but not all pensioners are poor. However why should pensioners be a more protected group than the disabled? If we are going to cut benefits for the disabled then it's only fair to consider cutting benefits for wealthy pensioners.

I totally agree that pensioner benefits should be looked at if working age ones are being cut.

The state pension goes up by at east 2.5% every single year. JSA has been frozen until 2020. That is not fair. JSA is already not enough to live off now, this will just get worse.

I really don't recognise some of the stories upthread about the 70s. I graduated in 1970 ( no tuition fees and I had a maintenance grant). I went into college teaching and in 1977 bought my first house - it cost two and a half time my salary. I was a basic grade lecturer and as well as paying my mortgage, I had a car and foreign holidays. No family money - all earned. When I eventually married, I carried on paying the full NI contribution ( it was a choice to opt out). I now benefit from a full state pension and occupational pensions ( which are final salary related - a dying breed). I was able to get all my pensions at age 60. I also work part time because I enjoy it (and don't have to pay NI - why not?) I am appalled at the society I now live in and I would rather poke my eyes out with a pin than ever vote Conservstive. i have a dd of 34 and I know about all the issues with house prices, child care, commuting costs, no pay rises in 5plus years. Yet I get increases every year to all my pensions - I think the triple lock on state pensions is a disgrace and as for WFA , bus passes and TV licences . Of course there should be a decent basic income for all pensioners but those of us well above that should not be given such extras. For a start. We could define a well off pensioner as someone paying the higher rate of tax.

Just one quick thought - why does means testing for pensioners need to be a big expensive thing? Why can't the same approach be taken as for child benefit, for things like the winter fuel allowance at least. Take it (or opt out) but if you are a higher rate taxpayer and haven't opted out it is clawed back through the tax return.

I agree with the point upthread though about pensioners today (certainly the older ones) having things really tough early on. My mum had to give up her job on marriage (1949). My parents lived with her parents for the first 5 years of marriage until they had saved enough to get a mortgage. Furniture was all second hand, no eating out, no holidays etc. My dad left school and started work at 14. It was a different world. Incidentally he died before receiving a penny in pensions but I don't begrudge my mum a penny of the widows pension she gets.

I had all second hand furniture in my first property - late 80s. I do think that on the whole the expectations of the younger generation today are much much higher in terms of standard of living.

Bouirdic - you are just that couple of years older than me. Even those two years can make a difference.

One reason I chose to work in the Public sector was because they offered equal pay and pensions to women. There were still factories 'oop north' which quite openly advertised wages as "Men £xxx, Women £xxx - yy". It infuriated me, and I was really glad to see the equal pay legislation come in in the mid 70s. It still happened that women clustered in the lower grade jobs, and that men appeared to get the promotions more easily, but it wasn't so blatant.

Houses in the north could be bought for £3,000 in 1975 - in the south east the equivalents were already £8,000. Outside London, public sector salaries were the same so the ability to purchase a house depended very much on where you lived. I saved for a number of years with a building society, and they just didn't want to know when the time came to actually apply I don't know whether it was sex discrimination or what. I eventually got a mortgage via the Local Authority. DH at the same time in the South East had the greatest of difficulty getting a mortgage at all because of the price differential, and lack of similar housing stock i.e. not nearly so many rows of small terraces which made good starter homes.

The married woman's stamp was abolished after April 1977, so I just missed that and am glad. I get a full pension because although I had some gaps in my record, the amount to make up wasn't great, so I paid up. Then they changed the law, to make you eligible after 30 years, so I needed have bothered! I didn't, as I said, get my pension at 60 because they had started increasing the age at which you could draw it, and in England they sneaked the age at which you could get your bus pass up at the same time. I don't remember a word of publicity about that.

I had short foreign holidays and ran an old car, in the seventies but then I consciously went without other things - I didn't drink for example so saved money that way.

Weddings were much more low key. We certainly didn't have the stag and hen parties that happen now - a meal out in the pub with your friends was about the norm.

I am not sure that your work pension will increase this year. DH has just had a letter saying that "Public service pensions [such as his] are increased in line with the increase in the Consumer Price Index (CPI) in the twelve months to September of the previous year. At September 2015 the CPI was minus 0.1%, and therefore there will be no pension increase in April 2016, nor will there be any reduction to your pension." My pension provider hasn't bothered to write yet, but I expect the same. At the same time, this year our Council tax has increased, Water charges have increased, train fares have increased, so it doesn't feel like minus inflation.

I agree entirely with the last part of your post.

Peregrina- I remember getting my first mortgage in 1977- the look on some
people's men's faces when I asked. But I've always been an awkward feisty person so I just kept knocking on doors until someone gave in!!

As a general point, I don't go along with what seems a general criticism of changing expectations by younger generations. Of course standards have changed and quite rightly. Yes, I had all second hand furniture to start with but there weren't the Ikeas etc there are now and I was just so excited at having my own place - a rented council flat to start with and then my first house - a darling cottage up a hill in North Wales. I just thought about my parents and grandparents and how lucky I was - each generation has its own reference groups. I never feel that I was hard done by because I didn't go on an expensive hen weekend - we didn't have them so couldn't feel deprived. I will always be grateful to the post war Labour government for what it gave me and others like me from poor backgrounds. Whatever criticisms I have had over the years of the many manifestations of the Labour Party, I know that all real social progress only comes from them - and from the social progress of free university education came my economic progress and well being. What makes me sad today is how many people fall for the propaganda that has us turning on each other - old v young, shirkers v workers, those with good pensions v those without whilst the real winners in our society carry on taking home their spoils. They must laugh seeing us fight each other.

Lecturers used to be very well paid. Their status and working conditions have come down. The job that used to be done by basic lecturers tends to be done by PHD students and sessional lecturers.

I also fear that any changes to the pension will not affect current pensioners, but will affect those who are older. We will be left without enough time to make alternative pension planning, but will be hammered.

I don't care about a free bus pass. Although in cities it may have a negative impact. The winter fuel payment was introduced to stop poor pensioners dying of the cold. I am fine if it is means tested, although I think it should be introduced.

But pension planning is a long term thing. I took pension advice in my 20s and have planned long term. I have also not been well paid. While most of my colleagues spent their money, I have saved and put money into a pension. I really fear being no better off or even worse off, than those who simply spent their money.

Not introduced, increased. Very poor pensioners still die during a cold spell. They need more money.

Cleaty - I said college lecturer - which was the same pay scales as teachers. You're right about the problems with pension planning and the long term nature of it - it's one of the things that helped fuel buy to let. I have friends who have retired with private pensions much less than was first hoped for/promised in the first place. The only hope is to have a compassionate, caring society that believes in decent minimum incomes for all ( not just pensioners). The WFA could be added onto anyone getting pension credit and taken away from everyone else - that would be an easy way of means testing it. Poor pensioners could have more money if people like me didn't get WFA

Okay sorry, I didn't realise you started on £22,000 equivalent.

The first house I bought at 25 years old, is up for sale again at £76,000. But then I moved somewhere cheap to buy a house, and even now, house prices are not high as they are in many other places.

Buy to let has fuelled the high house prices though. It used to be that if first time buyers could not afford the cheaper houses, the prices fell. With buy to let, that natural correction to the market no longer happens. The truth is that much of the current problems younger people face is to do with high rents and high house prices. Tackle that, and the younger generation would be fine.

I worked three jobs because my age group saw claiming benefits as shameful

andypandy was that under a Tory government by any chance?

I don't see claiming benefits as shameful and neither do people in many other societies such as Sweden who also have a welfare system. Social security should be part of any caring society. The Tories believe charities such as food banks should help the poor rather than the state.

It wasn't unusual in the past for people to see claiming benefits as shameful. It isn't right, but I know many people who 20 or 30 years ago did not claim what they were entitled to. I know quite a few people whose parents refused to let them claim unemployment benefit when they were still living at home, including my DP's parents. These attitudes were common then. Many people saw benefits as a last resort.
My mum who was a lone parent, said the benefits office used to sometimes give food vouchers rather than money at times, to test if people really were desperate. Because using food vouchers was shameful, so most people did not use them. My mum had 3 kids and no other support, so had to use them.

A lot of older women pensioners, e.g. those now in the late 80s and early 90s never claimed a pension because they didn't realise that they could and successive governments have saved millions on this. My mother was put onto making a claim by a family friend working for what was then the DHSS. Her first thought was that she couldn't claim because she had given up work in 1949 and not taken paid employment since then, but the friend reminded her that she had been working since 1937 and throughout the war, so would have had a number of years contributions, and indeed she was entitled to a modest pension in her own right. With that also came access to things like reduced rate tickets to the cinema (not that they went much) and other bits and pieces.

Re housing: There was always a huge disparity in housing costs between the north and south. I bought a 2 bedroom house in Yorkshire for £2750 at the end of 1974 - early 1975. Friends in outer London managed to get a 2 bed flat at the bargain price of £10,000 in 1973. London weighting didn't really cover the additional cost.

I can't say that I was brought up to be anti pensioner, the nearest we got to criticising older people, pensioner or otherwise, was either their fashion sense or taste in music, which is an on-going a generational thing. However, I was always aware of the sacrifices that older people had made for my generation. Reading some, not all of these threads, makes me aware that younger people are unaware of the sacrifices which have been made for them.
The criticism of people saying that pensions are a right not a benefit, seem to be lodged against a generation of people who fought for equal rights for women, were anti-discrimination, fought for free contraception, the legalisation of abortion and homosexuality and free nursery places.
Now they have the balls to stand up for their pensions. Free bus passes, yes you should have the right to turn them down if you don't want them but for many pensioners who can't drive, for health reasons and otherwise, they save them from social isolation.
By the way, I have lost five friends in their 50 and a brother, they all worked full time and never had the chance to claim their pensions.

Bourdic surely if you were a college lecturer in the 1970s you were one of the few who went to Uni.
Hardly fair to imply that lots of people were doing well.
I went to college (to train to join a poorly paid profession in the NHS) in 1972 and I don't get my state pension until i'm 66 and a bit in 2020. So you have struck lucky imo.