To think the state pension is a benefit

[hettyGreek]

I've noticed alot of "The state pension is not a benefit" groups that have sprung up on Facebook etc.

I understand that these people "paid their stamp" and all that was asked of them. But this NI money was not put away in a saving account for them, it just went into general taxation. If it had of just been put away in a savings account the state pension would be far far less than it is at the moment and no triple lock.

Aibu?

The state pension's original designation was National Insurance Benefit. It's a benefit, and it is administered by DWP along with other benefits like JSA etc.

Wealthy pensioners have got away with a lot, "austerity" wise. Well done them, for bothering to vote.

And lots of pensioners are not well off.

What makes a pensioner wealthy? Income? Assets? Is somebody with a million pound home but no income wealthy? What about somebody with no home but a painting that's worth £1M? Should the painting or house be sold to realise their "wealth"? And what about somebody with a £30K private pension but still paying rent? Are they wealthy?

I think you'd be hard pressed to define who should get the benefit and who not if you decided to go down that route.

What would you like to happen to the elderly who have no occupational or private pensions? Do you want the return of the workhouse, voluntary euthanasia for over 75s or compulsory seizing of assets with all proceeds handed over to 'you'?

It's earned even if it isn't hypothecated, so not a welfare benefit in the usual sense, no.

Actually you are wrong. The national
insurance fund is hypothecated.

When I first started working I was told that my NI contributions qualified me for medical and dental treatment, unemployment benefit if needed, and a state pension at the age of 60. That was the 'contract' between the government and me. I am now told I will get my pension at 66.

If you walked into a travel agent and agreed to pay monthly for a holiday in California next June, and then were told that the company couldn't afford to pay the holiday supplier so would send you to Croatia in September would you accept that?

Most private pensions are small. Most people use them to top up the state pension. What young people do not realise is that many of us who have private pensions who are in our 50s, are actually going to get less back than we have paid in. The pension industry has over the years acted disgracefully.

Well when I was studying at university, the state pension was not classed as a benefit. Having worked for 46 years and paid full stamp, I don't apologise for seeing it as a right. I have never had the opportunity to claim benefits even as a single parent bringing up three children on my own, I worked three jobs because my age group saw claiming benefits as shameful. I wonder if the younger generation feel the same as that about claiming family tax credits and working tax credits! So the age group who are complaining about paying out the massive state pension, think again. My age group did not get equal pay, I don't know any wealthy pensioners and if the government built more suitable houses for pensioners they wouldn't be taking up the three bedroomed council houses. Be careful what you wish for, they are already talking about raising it even higher and there won't be anyone left around to fight for you because they will all be dead.

My pension age wealthy father has tried to stop all his state pension, winter fuel payments etc but was told he couldn't. He then tried to return them and was told he couldn't. Now he donates the amount to charities. Wealthy pensioners can't stop getting all this stuff even if they want to as 'the computer says no'.

Yes that is true about equal pay. Which is also why most poor pensioners are women who are widowed or single. And I never had any benefits either. We lived in some terrible housing situations because we could not afford rent. Housing benefit was for the incredibly poor then.

As this shows, pension spend as a % of GDP was 2% in the 50s. It's now at 8%. Totally unsupportable in the longer term.

A lot of the older generation had it harder than we do now - no immunisations (my dad had meningitis as a child because there weren't immunisations when he was young, left him deaf in one ear), the majority left school and worked younger (both my parents from 15), they had a lot less help than is available now, due to the fact that the welfare state was in its infancy when my parents when young. They worked hard and paid their taxes, why begrudge the elderly of their 'benefits' - the winter fuel allowance etc. I think it's a little bit petty to do so. I cant speak for all pensioners of course, but the ones I know struggled quite a bit/were poorer than we'd deem acceptable now, and I think it only right we look after the elderly. Other cultures take great care of their elderly population, it is only right that we should too. My dad worked for 50 years, my mum for 48 years currently, and never had any benefits off the government despite struggling at times so I do believe they deserve their pensions, winter fuel allowance etc, I certainly don't begrudge them that.

Blaming the recent cuts on pensioners is stupid. Ok, disabled people have had their benefits cut and pensioners haven't. Terrible, yes. But instead of having a pop at pensioners, blame the givernment instead, they're the ones doing this. Don't turn against each other. Think what you want but I for one am glad the government aren't means testing winter fuel allowance etc - in my eyes this is one of the rare occasions they're doing something right.

Made in 95 - Lots of the older generation were able to afford housing and afford to be able to work hard and actually gain from it, social mobility was encoyraged and accessible not like now where people begrudge families having any chance yet pensioners take up far more of the welfare bill than we're led to believe. In a professional capacity, I've come across more families struggling to feed their children now than I have pensioners, winter fuel payment going to wealthy pensioners when there are families struggling to feed and keep a roof over their childrens heads. I begrudge that

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VoteforPedro Yes, some pensioners were able to afford their own houses. They also didn't take foreign holidays, multiple cars, had at most one TV set, didn't eat out regularly...... Buying a house was the one thing they put their money towards. In other words, they put themselves through austerity to get there.

People hide behind statistics and don't look at reality. The reality is that if governments hadn't sold off national assets, (like the Thatcherite government) and I am talking about gas, electricity etc., then the profits would go back into the country and we would have a better welfare state. Privatisation has been the death of this country. Stop blaming pensioners.

You do know in the 50's Britain was still recovering from being virtually bankrupt? Rationing was still in force. You really can not compare the present day to a country that still had to enforce rationing.

Yes, some pensioners were able to afford their own houses. They also didn't take foreign holidays, multiple cars, had at most one TV set, didn't eat out regularly...... Buying a house was the one thing they put their money towards. In other words, they put themselves through austerity to get there.

May I add to this as a "baby boomer", just to flesh it out with some examples. It was hard to get on the housing ladder - there were mortgage famines, and at times interest rates were as much as 14%.

I agree with the lack of foreign holidays bit - in the early 80s one year the only 'holiday' we managed with two kids was a day trip to the Isle of Wight, and even then, that was some sort of special offer.

And no, it wasn't the "baby boomer" generation - as andypandy says, it was the Thatcherite government.

There is no doubt the elderly have not pulled their weight in the financial crisis

Jesus what a nasty piece of work. David Cameron ( and a lot of wealthy Labourites) haven't pulled their weight at - why not have a word with them before making sweeping generalisations about "the elderly". You seem to be doing that awful race to the bottom from the 4 Yorkshiremen - disabled people have been shafted by Cameron, so Pensioners ought to be. This is why ordinary folk keep getting shafted.

And I don't remember anyone staying at home to save up to buy a house. We all lived in house shares and bedsits, that had very low standards of habitation.

Incidentally the first house we bought is now on sale for £75,000, which is affordable. When we sold it, we sold it for less than we had bought it as the market has collapsed.

@JugglingFromHereToThere

sure -

www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2215070/Are-contributor-burden-nations-finances--Squeezed-middle-increasingly-dependent-state.html

Peregrina- more examples. When we went for our first mortgage in the late 1970's, we had to have evidence of at least two years regular savings before we could apply. We used to go into the building society every week and pay our spare money in. Only the man's wage counted, and I think the calculation of how much we could borrow was 2x his basic pay. We scraped together £2500, borrowed £8000 and bought a house for £10,200. The rest of our savings bought a bed, a second hand cooker and fridge. We were given 2 chairs and a table. No tv, the rest of the stuff we either got as wedding presents or went without. Our honeymoon was a week camping with a borrowed tent. We ran a car, but couldn't afford driving lessons for me. This was normal, our generation worked hard to buy (am not saying people don't work hard now though).
We didn't eat out, no weeklong foreign stag or hen parties, no fancy holidays or gadgets.

To blame people in their 50s and older for the current problems is not on, you need to look to successive governments who squandered this countries resources, sold off national wealth to their business buddies and allowed the financial sector to so completely screw up that the world economy collapsed.

And many older people who have bought houses, actually bought their council house. That is because Thatcher made the change so they could be bought privately. No you can not do that now, but these people are not well off.

I have just been reading up on pensioner wealth. The biggest source of pensioner wealth is tied up in annuity products. Hardly surprising as for many people pensions are their biggest asset. So this may mean you have a lot of money tied up in your annuity, but you only actually get a small proportion of this as income.
This is the politics of divide and rule.

If you were a single woman back then (70s) mortgage lenders didn't want to know you, unless you were of more mature years and not likely to have a family.

A lot of women only paid the married woman's NI stamp (abolished just before I got married.) This doesn't entitle them to a full pension. Where was the publicity telling women about this, which would have enabled them to do something about it?

The changed age for claiming a bus pass was not as far as I am aware publicised at all. DH claimed his at 60. I found I had to wait until I was eligible for the state pension, which in my case was the week I turned 61, before I could claim. A school friend with a birthday 5 months later than me waited something like 10 months longer before she could claim her pension and bus pass. Women with birthdays after that have to wait even longer. The changes have been brought in without much publicity, so that women are less able to plan for the changes. (That may only be in England, Scotland and Wales may still be more generous.)

Few women went to university, jobs usually paid less anyway so there were fewer opportunities to build up a pension fund. I can remember working for a firm in the mid seventies which only invited male employees to join the pension scheme.

Which jobs do women favour? Nursing, teaching, local government, i.e. public sector jobs. Which sector is being hit hardest?

Basically, a whole lot of middle aged women went without when they were younger and have drawn the short straw now.