To not sell a potentially £million plus property for £200,000?

[InheritanceDilema]

Got a really sticky situation and need some advice.

FIL has died and Dh and BIL have inherited his house and small holding. We are not local and do not wish to live there. It's BILs dream to live there and he wants to buy us out and will happily pay us half of the £400,000 valuation of the small holding inc the house.

There are eight acres of land and I genuinely believe that planning permission could be got. The fields are in the middle of a village, so surrounded by built up areas/houses on all sides. Obviously if planning permission was gained the value of the land would be a lot more.

Bil has no interest in planning permission or making any money. He wants to live in his childhood home surrounded by goats, chickens and gooseberry bushes living a River Cottage dream. Dh doesn't want to rock the boat and doesn't know what to do.

I know if we did sell it we could put a thing on the sale saying if BIL did in the future get planning permission we would be entitled to more money. But I know BIL wouldn't ever seek planning permission. He won't even consider only having some of the land and planning permission for the rest of it. He wants a couple of ponies and says he needs all the land. I don't want to kiss goodbye to a considerable amount of money just to keep the peace.....we're not that well off. BIL owns 4 houses and already has a fantastic pension as well as rental income and his current house is worth half a million. We're in a terrace with no other houses and while £200,000 is a lot of money i don't think it's fair that BIL expects us to let him have his own way.

girlinacoma put it much better than I could, so I wont try.

OP, you are not been 'grabby' or any of the other insults directed at you, you are trying to be sensible about your families financial future, which you are more than entitled to do. It's interesting that 'grabby' hasn't been used much to describe bil, despite him refusing to compromise in any way on 'his dream' (fuck everyone else's) and his past form for financial shenanigans.

I think it's fine to put in a clause saying if he develops the land then sells, you are entitled to a share. I don't think it's fair to have a clause saying you're entitled to more when it eventually sells if he hasn't developed it and it has just increased in value due to market forces. That would've very unfair as that would mean you have had 200k now without actually giving up your stake in the property. So like selling your London house for 200k 15yrs ago to s couple now selling it for 1.3millikn and expecting a share of that. Either you're bought out or not. Any future pp and dramatic increase is different.

The dream business is just ridiculous. We all have dreams, that doesn't entitle us to have whatever we want regardless of the people around us. My usual response to this kind of crap is "Tough. My dream is not to have to listen to people whinge about their dreams and why I should make them possible". Sometimes someone needs to be the bad guy and since I don't want a relationship with the worst BIL or his hideous, grasping bitch-queen wife, I'm happy to step in. It means that MrQ can still have some sort of relationship with his brother, without losing any more money or property.
TBH I didn't mention the BIL's grabbiness (Is that even a word?) because all of mine are like this and i sometimes forget there is any other kind!
If the OP's DH had been left £220k and she didn't think it was enough, I'd say she should STFU, but that's not the case at all. He has been left something which his brother is trying to convince him is only worth £200k and OP is fairly sure that this is not true. Wanting more and wanting your fair share are not the same thing. The fair share may turn out to be £200k or it may not, but I wish her well in sorting it out without either major family battles or Jarndyce v. Jarndyce style legal bills.

In short OP, I think that your DH should contact his brother and say that there needs to be a proper and independent valuation of the estate.

Once that has been completed, then you can decide the best way forward to ensure that the estate is handled fairly and equally.

With respect to your BIL not really , what he will or will not 'entertain' is completely fucking irrelevant.

It would be very risky for the OP to disregard what amicissimma is saying.

I have for many years had the smallholding dream too; looked at various properties in person and online. Granted OP doesn't say how many beds the property has. But unless it needs significant modernisation, or is in a very remote location, or maybe has a covenant attached that it has to be for agricultural use only (I think it is called an agricultural tie) I think the £400K valuation looks low with the 8 acres attached. If the site is in decent nick and it's less than 3 hours from London the BIL is having a laugh.

Why do you put yourselves under pressure to sell to BIL? Just refuse. It's your DH's wish whether or not he wants to sell. Surely not your BIL's! Ask BIL to pay rent to you and live in the house. No pressure on any of you. Do all your homework and sell only when you really want the money or when BIL gets bored and backs off.

amicissimma This was very interesting reading.

If the estate is worth £400,000 and BIL gives £200,000, does the OP and DH have to pay 40% tax, so get substantially less in their pocket at the end?

Is DH scared of the repercussions if he doesn't do as bil wants? What is their relationship like? Does he normally fall in line?
Did he realise that bil was getting a non repayable loan to buy him out last time? If it was supposed to be paid back, didn't fil ever mention it or try to balance the unfairness last time. Why was it all swept under the carpet? Shouldn't that situation be at least acknowledged should really be balanced now? Or will it cause upset to be brought into discussions now.

I get the impression that DH is scared to rock the boat but Bil is quite happy to bulldoze his way through not caring at all about rocking the boat.

At the end of the day it is Dhs descision but he has asked for your opinion and you should give it. He should do whatever he feels is right but not because he is pressurised or intimidated into it. If you both feel it is wrong give him the support he needs to stand up to his brother.

decision

Bloody hell, the double standards on this thread is shocking. The OP is married to her husband, therefore any financial implication on their family unit needs to be discussed as a couple, not as separate people. The fact that they also have DC makes this even more important.

girlinacoma put it so well in her post. Do not let your DH be taken for a mug. Your BIL is only putting himself first and tbh sounds like he's trying to screw you over. There's nothing like a large estate to show someone's true colours - estates / wills / inheritance can bring out the worst in people.

Get independent valuations done - tbh I would be insisting the whole place is sold, that way you'll get the proper value. You need to protect your DC's future. As it currently stands, your BIL's DC will get everything, at your DC's expense.

amicissimma - interesting point. -

I had similar situation when an ex DP had to pay a fortune in CapGainsTax.

We jointly owned a house. (I really owned it as I was paying the mortgage but needed his name on the deeds at the time as I was self-employed and he put down a small percentage of the deposit).

He moved out. Years later he agreed to transfer his half to me. . No money changed hands. I was practically bankrupt. HMRC said that as he had bought, (mortgage), and was living elsewhere his half was a second home and liable for CGT. - Huge amounts!!!!! There was no second home, there was no profit, there was no money changing hands - we just removed his name from the deeds.

We paid the tax - it was the rules. It is fair enough. HMRC don't care about the ins and outs.

Your DP might well find himself with the £200k from BiL and having to use all of it to pay the IHT bill. Result - ZERO. Take heed.

I don't think people should be so quick to condemn you tbh.

If BIL owns 4 houses he's not quite the naive country loving bumpkin he's making himself out to be - rather he's an extremely savvy businessman.

I wouldn't be surprised if he knows full well the value of this house.

If I were you I'd sell with a watertight clause saying that should he sell or develop the land your husband will be entitled to half. However, and this is CRUCIAL, I'd make it be a clause that applies even when he sells as he could have the house revalued on the grounds of potential development and sell to a developer for an inflated price but you'll never still get any money because the land wasn't developed or had planning permission applied for. So I'd make sure you get a property solicitor that can sew this up properly.

If he IS the innocent bumpkin he wont mind even slightly as he knows it'll never apply to him.

If he objects to the clauses then you'll know you're being stitched up.

If it is valued at £400,000, then that is what it is worth. I don't see the point of imagining it could be worth so much more with planning permission. I think you are best keeping out of it and letting DH and BIL sort it between them.

If it is valued at £400,000, then that is what it is worth. I don't see the point of imagining it could be worth so much more with planning permission. I think you are best keeping out of it and letting DH and BIL sort it between them

I think this point of view is extremely naive and unsophisticated and demonstrates little understanding of the notion of value.

Wow, you are not being grabby at all, you sound very pragmatic and I think you are doing the right thing to consider the potential value of the property rather than the value your BIL says he received for it.

In all likelihood he is being honest, but it is in your interests to have it valued independently and also have any potential value for the land assessed.

As others have said, you may never be able to gain planning permission on the land or it may take years of lobbying.

I agree with others who have suggested two valuations, one value for the house and a separate value for the land. Maybe split the value of the house and wait and see how things pan out with the land.

Good luck.

And yet, op's self "valuation" is a purely arbritary figure plucked from the air. Why not go the normal route of actually having it valued yourself if you doubt the figure you've been given?
It reminds me of those people who put their house on the market and refuse to accept that it's not selling because it's grossly over priced. It's "worth" is whatever someone is willing to pay for it ; and if that is considerably less that you paid for it yourself, tough, you just have to suck it up.

Fair enough sock. Sorry I misunderstood. But equally op isn't bu for not wanting her DH to be disadvantaged. Bil doesn't sound as honourable as you. Remember he had no qualms about disadvantaging DH over the last house

But did he? The op said the house was worth 40k and Her DH got 20k when BIL brought him out. That's half, that's all the DH was entitled to

It does not matter where the BIL got the money from but even if you consider that it was the FIL who gave it to BIL then it was the FIL who did any stiching up not the BIL and FIL only did that by not giving the DH another 20k to make it perfectly fair.

Were I you I would insist your DH take proper tax, legal and property advice.

Then he will be in a position to negotiate something fair to all parties.

The BIL has form for making sure that he gets the best deal out of property over his brother. Making sure that it doesnt happen again is not being grabby, its being extremely sensible.

At best, getting several independent valuations will confirm the original valuation and they can make their decisions based on that.

Personally though, with the valuation being arranged by him, with his refusal to countenance any other situation than him owning the whole property outright and him pushing his brother to accept £200k, I would be very suspicious of his motives. As a pp said, he is a savvy property owner and I think he smells a deal here and is trying to cut his brother out of it.

It woud be interesting to see his reaction to the suggestion of a covenant, if he hits the fucking roof then you can bet your backside that his plan all along was to develop it and make a fortune which he intended to keep.

But in that case shouldnt bil be feeling really slightly guilty and trying his hardest to be fair this time rather than "not entertaining" anything Dh suggested? Even if it wasnt his decision, he has benefited from that extra money. That's probably why he can afford to buy Dh out and why Dh can't afford to buy him out.

Sorry that was to sock

Grape - let's not be so naive. BIL is only out to suit himself here.

I agree Coconut. That's what i'm saying even if we do give him the benefit of the doubt over him deliberately disadvantaging Dh, as sock is suggesting - saying that it was FIl stitching Dh up not bil.

I didn't say it wasn't his decision as obviously he did make a decision to not continue with jointly owning the previous property.

The DH happily agreed to take the 20k which was exactly what his share was worth the only upset that happened was when they discovered FIL had given him the money.

That was an issue between the DH and the FIL and given we have no idea why the FIL made that decision it's not up to the BIL to rectify it.

We do not know that it is not a valid correct appropreate valuation the only way this can be known is if the DH acts like a grown up and aranges one which he should have done already given the BIL has had time to do so