To not sell a potentially £million plus property for £200,000?

[InheritanceDilema]

Got a really sticky situation and need some advice.

FIL has died and Dh and BIL have inherited his house and small holding. We are not local and do not wish to live there. It's BILs dream to live there and he wants to buy us out and will happily pay us half of the £400,000 valuation of the small holding inc the house.

There are eight acres of land and I genuinely believe that planning permission could be got. The fields are in the middle of a village, so surrounded by built up areas/houses on all sides. Obviously if planning permission was gained the value of the land would be a lot more.

Bil has no interest in planning permission or making any money. He wants to live in his childhood home surrounded by goats, chickens and gooseberry bushes living a River Cottage dream. Dh doesn't want to rock the boat and doesn't know what to do.

I know if we did sell it we could put a thing on the sale saying if BIL did in the future get planning permission we would be entitled to more money. But I know BIL wouldn't ever seek planning permission. He won't even consider only having some of the land and planning permission for the rest of it. He wants a couple of ponies and says he needs all the land. I don't want to kiss goodbye to a considerable amount of money just to keep the peace.....we're not that well off. BIL owns 4 houses and already has a fantastic pension as well as rental income and his current house is worth half a million. We're in a terrace with no other houses and while £200,000 is a lot of money i don't think it's fair that BIL expects us to let him have his own way.

[Inertia]

I hope the OP has disappeared with her H to get professional advice about this, particularly about the tax ramifications. It's certainly not grabby to want to protect yourself against an enormous tax bill.

[Dollymixtureyumyum]

Hope the OP did not take the "advice" dished out at the beginning of this thread. I hate to think what the consequences might be. Notice the grabby brigade have gone really quiet now. Any of you willing to come back on and backup your stance on the OP being a money grabber? Maybe in future look a bit at the wider picture before posting

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

He owns 4 other property's so he is very savvy when it comes to property

Although I'm coming late to the thread, that's exactly what stood out for me. Obviously none of us know the BIL, but IME experienced property speculators aren't generally the type who are desperate to live a fluffy childhood idyll. At the very least it would raise a big question mark in my mind over his real plans

Forgive me if someone's already mentioned this, but would it be possible to get a local architect in to look at the plot and give an informed opinion as to whether planning permission would be likely to be granted? No need to make a song and dance about it; after all you'd only be asking ...

[stonecircle]

Puzzles - that's exactly what my dsis and I did when we had to sell our parents' home. Fair bit of land attached in a sought after residential area so - in true grabby fashion -we asked a local architect's opinion. He explained why access problems would make it unlikely so we didn't do that thing where you register an interest in future development.

[Teapot101]

Why not get the house valued separately from the land. Let BIL buy the house and retain a 50:50 ownership of the land but just effectively let him have it on a lifetime tenancy? (sorry not read whole thread)

[EddieStobbart]

I completely agree. I've posted on this thread a few times because I have some experience with something that had some similarities. I would rather my DF was still alive one million times over but he passed away 10 years ago. DB and I inherited a property, dealt with some complications without falling out (potentially far more awkward than the OP's) by properly considering and discussing the issues and making sure we were being fair to each other. DH and SIL didn't sit in on our discussions but their opinions were taken into account through us. We now both have some rental income coming in which, given I was recently made redundant, is of enormous comfort to me.

I don't think it's helpful to long term family relations if one party is potentially disadvantaged at the other's expense and this was agreed for the reason of avoiding the short term discomfort of discussing all the issues.

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

In true grabby fashion -we asked a local architect's opinion

Nothing grabby in seeking proper professional advice, stonecircle

Having now RTFT I see the BIL has (conveniently?) sorted out his own people to value it, and also has no interest in buying only part of the house and land - he wants the lot

I'm really sorry, but none of that sounds to me like the actions of someone in pursuit of a childhood dream

[Knockmesideways]

I agree that the BIL looks like he's very money savvy and I'd be getting a lot more legal advice about this.

But, just to point something out, planning permission may take a long, long time to come through (if at all). A man in our small market town has jumped on the bandwagon of building (we have 400 houses going up in the next seven years as part of the Labour/Conservative housing policy) that is going on round here and put forward a plan to build 40 houses on some land he owns. He's had practically no support in the area for the plans (400 houses is enough) and is now at the appeal stage. First planning permission meeting was 18 months ago. He's had revised plans, environmental impact surveys holding him up and now he's just gone through appeal. It'll be another 2 months until he hears.

So this could be a long process. I still think I'd be looking into what BIL could make with planning permission but, if you're going to go down that route yourself OP, bear in mind that you could be tying the property up for a long time.

[minipie]

I'm with you OP. I think that BIL may or may not be genuine about wanting to live the rural idyll, but even if he does want to live there he certainly wants to be sure his children (and not yours) get the appreciating land. And I don't think it's wrong to be trying to ensure your side of the family are treated fairly.

I think there are three sensible options for you:

1. Get several proper independent valuations by the appropriate professional (I don't know what that is personally but there is advice upthread) which take into account the development potential. If you are confident the resulting valuation has taken all potential into account, then tell BIL you will accept half.
   
   
2. Agree to sell to BIL for £200k, but with a clause saying you and your inheritors are entitled to half of any uplift (net of improvement costs that BIL has spent) if and when the property is sold in future by BIL or his inheritors.
   
   
3. Tell BIL that DH wants to keep his half but is happy to rent it to BIL (up to you whether you ask for market rent or peppercorn).
   
   Now, 2) and 3) are not ideal - 2) is probably unworkable in practice and 3) is going to cause rifts as BIL has already said he won't consider this (bizarrely IMO). However, merely suggesting 2) and 3) and seeing how BIL reacts would be interesting. It would help to flush out whether BIL genuinely just wants the idyll and doesn't care about the money, or if he also has a financial motive.
   
   Good luck.

[minipie]

Also, of course, option 3) means you don't get a lump sum now. How do you feel about that

[shovetheholly]

I agree - was going to suggest mini's option 3 as the way forward. It gives you a bit of income, and allows you to call his bluff on the whole 'I just want to have a few chickens' story. It also makes your future stake in the property absolutely clear.

My friend is going through something similar right now. He owns half of a very expensive house, which is inhabited by his sibling. He's charged no rent in the whole time they have been living there. Since inheriting 20 years ago, the value of the house has increased exponentially. The sibling, who is extremely wealthy (owns a tower block!), has offered him only the value of the house twenty years ago! The cheek of it is mindblowing!

[ABetaDad1]

If you go for option 3 make sure you dont accidentally give BIL a sitting tenancy which you cant evict him from.

My suggestion is get a property solicitor to draw up a standard 5 year full repairing and insuring commercial tenancy with a option to renew at market rate.

That way you can get him out and force a sale and in the mean time he is responsible for repairs and upkeep, you have no outgoings and you have an income..

It has to be a proper arms length contract agreement fully documented.

If he doesn't want that then just force a sale now to a third party at market rate with a clause to share in any uplift if it ever gets planning permission or is sold.

[Soggybottomnighmareband]

You could put a condition on the sale, that if the land is developed that you get fifty percent of profit.

[derxa]

Without knowing where you are in the country I can't judge the value. You need to go a agricultural land agent and then another and get two valuations. Go to your nearest agricultural centre/auction market plus one of the big ones eg Knight Frank or Savills. Talk it through with them.
This sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. Your BiL is a bit of a shark. Beware.

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

Planning permission may take a long, long time to come through (if at all)

I completely agree, and also appreciate that no firm decision could be made until a planning application had been made. However my thinking was that a local architect or builder would probably have the experience to know what the local council are likely to agree to

It wouldn't give any guarantees of course, but it might give some added indication on what BIL's intentions really are

[DarkBlueEyes]

Please come back OP. There have been some quite rude and nasty comments on this thread but please don't let those overly influence you. The majority of people have understood and empathise with your issue.

[grapejuicerocks]

Thanks for everyone's thoughts. I will tell Dh that I have no opinion and he must do what he wants. But I will mention getting a proper red book valuation/probate valuation as a possibility as I don't think he's thought of this. Last house was just an estate agent value from someone BIL organised.

These are the ops last words. I hope she reads later replies because I think he asked for her opinion because he wanted his own feelings validated. If she refuses to give her opinion, then he could well take it that he shouldn't rock the boat.

[Lpel]

Haven't read full thread but I'd apply for planning permission anyway. You don't even have to own a property or plot to apply for it. After outcome of planning permission get it valued. Then start your negotiations with grabby BIL. Not everyone has so much money they can afford to pass up a chance for a decent windfall. Why shouldn't you try to get the best you can?

[LadyTmalia]

I havent read all the thread yet, but 2 things jump out, sorry if its already been mentioned, but we are not talking about newly wed teenagers I assume?

If its beenthought about for 20 years as stated bt the OP and Bil is retirering, then something suggested a middle aged ish couple of 40 ish (sorry if you are younger OP)
PLUS what about this OP knowing her fil for 20 years and you know, being in a partnership? everyone seems to be for equality for everything else, so its their money and thier inheritence surely? why c ant the op discuss this with her dh?

and it smacks of unfairness to me that the op's family got 20k and the bil got a 40k house worth more wehen he potentially sold it.

sorry, just sticking my nose in.

[shovetheholly]

I hope the OP comes back because I went to the trouble of running this past DH, who is an academic with quite a lot of knowledge in this area, and he said:

1. See whether the land is already allocated in the local plan
   
2. Ring the council's planning department and just ask them directly what the chances are of the land being allocated in the near future (may be quite high)
   
3. Understand that there will likely be local resistance to obtaining planning that may be quite strong and hold up the process (people, esp in small, wealthy villages, can be NIMBYish)
   
4. Hold onto a stake if you can, because policy can (and is likely to) change very quickly wrt parcels of land like yours.

[shovetheholly]

Aaaaaand I just realised I can't count to 4.

[throwingpebbles]

All good advice holly and yes even if land not currently allocated, that may well change in the future

[Janecc]

Op has not come back. I even PM'd her yesterday saying there was useful stuff here. So unless she does this thread is dead.

[grapejuicerocks]

It's very frustrating.

[OVienna]

I pm'd her too!